Lettering for Monon F-3s 85A and 85B c.1956- ANSWERED

[thomasjmdavis]

Are there any Monon locomotive experts lurking on Railwire?

I am working on some (N scale) F-3 shells hoping to at least approximate Monon units 85A and 85B as they would have looked circa 1956. 

My question is about whether in 1956, they had the "Hoosier Line" slogan that was originally painted on the lower sides and wore this at least until the wreck at Monon Ind. in 1951 (clearly shows in photos of the wreck).

I have other dated photos c. 1960 that show 85 A&B with the slogan replaced with "Monon" on the lower sides. 

Can anyone give a specific date (preferably with a dated photo or reference) for the change in lettering on the sides for these specific units?  The instructions for the decals are of no real help, more along the lines of "early" and "late" schemes.  My "best guess" is that the lettering specs changed during 1956 or later, after the name of the railroad changed from Chicago, Indianapolis and Louisville to Monon, but that it would not be until some years after that the units were repainted.  HOWEVER, it has also occurred to me that it might have been used on the units after the wreck repairs in late 1951.  Or maybe was not used on any freight unit until late 50s or early 60s.

Background for casual readers who might be unfamiliar with the CIL/Monon railroad-
These are both A units, all Monon B units carry a "C" after the number. 
These 2 units, along with 2 other passenger units, were damaged in a wreck in 1951 which resulted in the demolition of the Monon station. While there were several injuries, miraculously, the only fatality was the engineer- who had ignored all signals and apparently wrestled his fireman to keep him away from the brakes.
These were steam generator equipped and used frequently (maybe primarily) in passenger service, BUT were painted black and gold like freight units (in the early 60s, all the other passenger units were also painted into the black and gold, and then all F3s were renumbered with these two becoming 209 and 210.)

[CBQ Fan]

Here is a link to the IM Monon unit. No DB.  Not sure of their resources but I know the offered them with and without the DB.

https://www.intermountain-railway.com/n/html/69111.html

[thomasjmdavis]

Unfortunately, the IM units are not correct for the units I am modeling (I almost bought some several years ago, but recognized the differences in the nick of time). The IM is a late phase 2 or a phase 3 F-3 (no center porthole, low fans) which is correct for several Monon replacement freight units. The numbers in the IM ad are correct, but those are the only units the IM are correct for.

I took a closer look at one of the photos of the wreck of 85B at Monon.  It is hard to make out, because part of the roof of the station is collapsed on the loco, but I am 99% sure there are no dynamics.

However, still some question in my mind on when the "Hoosier Line" slogan was replaced by "Monon" on the side of the units. 

[CBQ Fan]

I have the IM shell that I put on another IM mechanism. In fact I was able to secure a light board from IM direct and convert a B unit NP butter knife scheme into a Monon A unit for grins and giggles. I picked up a few of the Atlas passenger cars to go with it. I have to go check what the road number is.

[CBQ Fan]

Mine is #62.

[OldEastRR]

If you search "monon train accident 1951" and check the images you can see a lot more pictures of the wreck, including the roof of the capsized loco. There's even a side view which shows "Monon" and monon logo near the cab window. The Monon Railroad Historical Site is where these pix came from. Apparently it was quite an event for the Monon because they took a lot of pictures.

monon.org/bygone_site/bygone/monon3.php

 shows what you want.

[thomasjmdavis]

Thanks for posting the site, OldEastRR.

Unfortunately, those photos do not show what I am looking for.  The only locos shown from the side view are the 2 red-gray units that were involved in the wreck- which indeed do have Monon painted on their sides.  However, what I am looking for are side views of 85A and 85B (which are both "A" units in the sense of "cabs") which are in the black-gold paint schemes.  And what I really need are photos of them after the repairs that the wreck made necessary, or, ideally, photos dates 1956, since that is the date I am modeling.

Here is a photo of them before the wreck:
https://www.mononmembership.store/uploads/1/2/9/8/129824119/s104001604252112443_p113_i1_w2550.jpeg


Note the "Hoosier Line" in script below the middle porthole.  In later years (1958 is the earliest I can find with a dated photo), the Hoosier slogan was replaced with "Monon" in gold letters on all the locos painted in the black-gold scheme.  However, I haven't found "proof" that Monon did not make that replacement earlier, at least on 85A and B.

[CBQ Fan]

Have you tried the Lafayette library or even Purdue, maybe Indiana University libraries for any resources they may have?

[thomasjmdavis]

Have you tried the Lafayette library or even Purdue, maybe Indiana University libraries for any resources they may have?

Good suggestions, but those are several hundred miles away, and as far as I can figure, I would have to go and look through old photos in archive boxes.

However, your suggestion did remind me of the one easy resource I had not looked through (mistakenly thinking anything in it would show up in a web search) and that is the Barriger library photos on Flickr. So I went through the whole CIL (Monon) part of the collection. Sure enough.... well, sort of.... the problem again is that the photos are not dated, and unfortunately, the loco is shown both ways.  My best guess is that the one with "Monon" on its side is a later addition.  There is an earlier shot of 85A,B at Dearborn, and a few photos previous to it is a shot of 82A (also damaged in the same wreck), with F-7 type grills, which were added as part of the repairs of the accident.  On the following page is a photo of a parade, with a float with the date on its side- 1952- so I am taking that to be summer of 1952.  Assuming those photos are all in order, then that shot of the 85 pair is sometime after the wreck.  So, I think I will go with "The Hoosier Line", and if it proves otherwise after I get the decals sealed....well, then I will just have to do those panels over.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/albums/72157640326682563/page4
https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/albums/72157640326682563/page4

[Missaberoad]

Are you a member of the Monon H&T Society? That would be where I would start, can pretty much guarantee someone with the answer to your question is involved there...

Maybe asking Lance Mindheim might go somewhere. Is Bill Darnaby or Mont Switzer online anywhere? Maybe ask on the protolayouts group.io? I know Tony K hangs out there...

[CBQ Fan]

I wonder if someone here could help you find a resource.

http://www.lindendepotmuseum.org/

[thomasjmdavis]

Are you a member of the Monon H&T Society? That would be where I would start, can pretty much guarantee someone with the answer to your question is involved there...

Maybe asking Lance Mindheim might go somewhere. Is Bill Darnaby or Mont Switzer online anywhere? Maybe ask on the protolayouts group.io? I know Tony K hangs out there...

Well, in a roundabout way, that has produced a result.  I KNEW I had a reference for this that was pretty definitive.  Perhaps "once had" would be correct.  I have been directed to the May 1982 issue of Mainline Modeler for Bill Darnaby's article.  I have the issue before and the issue after, which leads me to suspect that the one I need was either lost in one of my moves in the past 20 years, or is misplaced in a box of old MRs or RMCs.  The probability that a magazine was damaged while in storage (leaky roof in rental storage) is directly proportional to how much useful information it contained.  So, I will take a look in odd places around my train room, just in case, and do some searches on eBay for used copies.

[Missaberoad]

I have that issue. Pm me your email address...

A small quote from the article...

The units originally had a script "The
Hoosier Line" on the lower side panels and a small red
herald on the nose with "MONON" in the center of it. In ad·
dition, there were three black stripes or wings on the nose
centered around the door headlight...
...In 1951, the scheme was revised by placing MONON
in 12" letters on the lower side panels and by replacing the
herald with an 8" MONON on the nose.

[thomasjmdavis]

...In 1951, the scheme was revised by placing MONON
in 12" letters on the lower side panels and by replacing the
herald with an 8" MONON on the nose.

Well, that does answer the question, thanks very much.

PM sent.

Tom D.

[Missaberoad]

Email sent, hope its helpful!