CN Grande Cache Subdivision

[kevlarcat]

Thanks Otto, always interested in suggestions outside of the box! 

For what it is worth, here is a shot of the electrical box (+internet mess) in question:



The west and east slope aspect is surprisingly tricky to handle.  The way I am envisioning it now is to have a summit helix that moves from the lower to upper deck.  That way both decks have a similar overall climb/descent which is prototypical.  My thinking has been that the two terminal yards are best located on the outside of he layout with the more generous space for operators there.  This partly offsets the disadvantage of having stacked yards.

As I learn more about operations on the prototype, I am coming to understand that Winniandy is likely to have less yard activity and will be more of a location to originate and terminate whole trains.  By contrast, Swan Landing seems to be a hub of activity where congestion has led CN to add additional tracks in recent years.  That sounds like a great prototype for operational interest.

While I'm at it, here is the space right now viewed from the sitting area space.  Unimpressive but lots of potential.

Consider rotating your panel sideways, and keeping the top row of breakers at 5'6 it would meet code, and move all the shaw/telus stuff higher. Luckily your feed comes in at the top allowing you to rotate it around the top corner.  Might buy you enough height, and if that is a subpanel like it looks, its super easy to do.  If thats your main panel from the meter its more tricky with it being more complicated to shutdown for the move, but still possible.

[Scottl]

@Cajonpassfan Otto, you are right, I need to get in with a measuring tape.  The electrical is clearly higher than 6'.  I am 6'6" and I am looking up at some of it.  Pretty sure the ceiling is 8'- my skull knows an 8' ceiling when it doesn't feel one .

@kevlarcat It is the main panel for the house.  Rotating the box is probably possible given how much wire they used, and I agree the internet mess could be moved or rearranged.  The house was wired with a lot of coax and cat5 at some stage and I have been trying to sort out what is what to clean it up.  You can see the coax I have thinned out already on the floor and there are five lines that go outside where they are cut. Getting the fiber optic extended to relocate the entire mess is one option I am looking at.

In the end, I'm not interested in a situation where the scenery is compromised because I have to have the electrical box exposed.  I like the idea of using the corner and wall to the left of the box as open staging if it makes sense in the overall plan, but I'll take less layout over having a layout with a box exposed.  With the amount of space I have to work with, I'm tempted to leave the corner as proposed in the draft layout plan I posted.

[Cajonpassfan]

The pictures do help. That box is a joy killer, too high, too low, badly placed; too bad. But I understand....
Otto

[Scottl]

Yes Otto, I agree.  I could move the internet mess out of there and leave the electrical box only, but it would be easiest to put it in a closet and work around it.

After a busy week, here is an updated version of the layout draft.  It is getting a bit hard to follow but hopefully you can see the main changes:

-I have added a loop of track that would represent the Edson Sub. mainline associated with Swan Landing junction.  This now becomes a focal point of operations with mainline trains dropping and lifting cars, locals from Jasper coming out to clean things up, and general congestion.  This loop would be exposed for access along the benchwork where possible and would include 3 tracks to stage trains serving or passing through Swan Landing.  Based on information from a CN employee based in the area this kind of activity is important for clogging up Swan Landing and adding operation opportunities/interest.  Interesting also that crews from Grande Cache Sub are limited by collective agreements in what they can do on the CTC of the Edson Sub mainline, so there are plenty of challenges to work through.  Work for two to keep things moving there I think.

-The same connection has access to track surveys for Swan Landing, so pending those, I have just assumed (and not shown) a number of tracks with all turnouts for the Edson Sub located in the visible Swan Landing area.

-I am further envisioning separate reverse loop staging for each terminal yard that uses the helix space.  This provides turnaround capacity at both ends of the layout and further staging.

-I sketched in a benchwork edge to make sure aisle spacing was reasonable.  I think other than a few narrow locations the spacing in the interior of the layout is good for operators, especially around the online industries.  There is plenty of operator space for the main yards.

-I have not detailed the grades but it looks to me like there are not going to be any issues with clearances of either the staging or other .  Perhaps just where the Grande Cache sub first crosses the hidden Edson sub staging.  The former steeply rises from Swan Landing, so that hopefully can give c. 2"+ clearance to work with.

This is getting complicated, but now there is substantial staging to serve the layout and a lot of opportunities for operators.  There is still considerable refinement necessary as the yards get detailed but I am confident that there is nothing here that I can't build for reliable operation.  Similarly, I see enough space for scenic treatment of the bridges and other scenes to satisfy my interest on that front too.  Additionally, the electrical box access becomes useful space for operators and remains fully accessible.

Meeting with banker next week for benchwork wood second mortgage 

[Scottl]

I have a much better configuration, I think.  Feedback and suggestions from @mark dance solve some issues with the above layout.  Plan to be posted soon!

[kevlarcat]

@Cajonpassfan Otto, you are right, I need to get in with a measuring tape.  The electrical is clearly higher than 6'.  I am 6'6" and I am looking up at some of it.  Pretty sure the ceiling is 8'- my skull knows an 8' ceiling when it doesn't feel one .

@kevlarcat It is the main panel for the house.  Rotating the box is probably possible given how much wire they used, and I agree the internet mess could be moved or rearranged.  The house was wired with a lot of coax and cat5 at some stage and I have been trying to sort out what is what to clean it up.  You can see the coax I have thinned out already on the floor and there are five lines that go outside where they are cut. Getting the fiber optic extended to relocate the entire mess is one option I am looking at.

In the end, I'm not interested in a situation where the scenery is compromised because I have to have the electrical box exposed.  I like the idea of using the corner and wall to the left of the box as open staging if it makes sense in the overall plan, but I'll take less layout over having a layout with a box exposed.  With the amount of space I have to work with, I'm tempted to leave the corner as proposed in the draft layout plan I posted.

Glad you have found a solution that works for you!  I was facing the same issue planning my layout, my panel comes down under 5ft, and think I will have to turn it sideways as that area of the room is crucial to the yard portion and cant be shortened. 

[Scottl]

Layout planning has advanced quite a bit, led largely by @mark dance with input from many folk.  A number of local experts provided detailed track diagrams for yards and other operational information about the prototype.  So while I have spent much of the last month packing boxes and moving across the country, Mark has developed and drawn an excellent layout plan presented below.

This version is a double deck that combines the Edson Sub. mainline to feed trains into the Grande Cache Sub and to host traffic with longer trains (up to 15').  Swan Landing on the lower level is the junction of these lines and is faithfully reproduced in the layout plan.  Mainline traffic is staged from semi-hidden loops. Trains entering the Grande Cache Sub travel the line to Winniandy where there is another faithful representation of the trackage, as well as a loop staging area.  This amounts to two layouts in one- the mainline and the Grande Cache Sub, and the interchange as a focal element.

There is a single helix at the summit and inspired by @GaryHinshaw "Vortex" on his TBC layout, whereby the helix space is used for the staging loops as well.

Operator space is generous on the 'exterior' space where the two yards are, but admittedly more cramped in the 'interior' on the Grande Cache Sub.  Locating the sawmill (FFP) in a corner gives extra space for an operator there and allows operator meets.  The access space for the electrical box also provides operator space.

To limit the helix length, the trackage on the north side of the summit does not follow the prototype descent.  There is some vertical movement on either side of the Smokey River crossing, but this is the only major departure from the prototype. 

So as you can see, this is quite fleshed out compared to the version I drew up in the previous post.

[GaryHinshaw]

I really love this version of the plan that @mark dance drew up; it really seems to capture so many of the features you're looking for.  A few comments/questions:

* If I'm reading the plan correctly, there are 3 levels over the Edson staging area and that the Wild Hay bridge is on the middle level over Edson.  Is there enough vertical clearance there?

* I too share your concern about the interior aisle space.  Is there any freedom to push the Edson/Swan Landing section out a bit, as sketched below in red?  Alternatively, or in addition, could you shorten the middle peninsula by a foot or so?  Not sure if this puts too much strain on the grades though.

But all in all, this looks like a winner!

[Scottl]

Thanks @GaryHinshaw, I really like this plan.  Mark pushed this concept in some really interesting directions and the Edson Sub mainline component really adds to the overall operations potential.

You raise good questions.  The Wildhay River bridge is not especially tall but may require some incursion into the Edson sub below.  Given the Edson sub side is intended to be semi-hidden staging, I think a limited lowering of the Wildhay deck there is possible.  By comparison, the Mason Creek bridge on the upper deck is much taller and will need more vertical space in the same vicinity.  I'll need to confirm the vertical dimensions of everything and intend to by mocking up the heights for each deck. 

Your suggested benchwork changes would open the interior quite a bit.  Shortening the inner peninsula is a good idea to give some breathing space and could likely be done with minimal impact.  However, bending out the yard trackage into the rest of the basement is probably not possible as that area is the passage space between the stairs and the patio door exit.  I expect I would run into resistance if I try to expand into that area.  It does offer a good opportunity to increase interior space so it will be a priority as I lay out the space. 

[craigolio1]

Just stumbled on this. I’m super excited to see this progress.


Craig.

[Angus Shops]

“Would run into resistance…”. A very wise and experienced Senior Building Inspector once advised me “It is easier to seek forgiveness than to ask permission”. I mean, it’s a few inches - whose’s going to notice. And if it is noticed, you have three choices (short of retreating): deny, deny, deny to the day you die, seek permission as above, or, more creatively, admit your transgression and portray it as “not as bad as it could have been”, go on the offensive, and rely on your good looks and charm. I’ve tried all three in my modelling career and never had to retreat. Of course, I’ve had to bear my lumps every once in a while if it comes up in discussion at social gatherings.
Geoff

[Scottl]

   The space committee here is tougher than any building inspector I've dealt with.  The plan here is a lot of railroad so I don't mind some constraint of space.  It is a generous area to work with compared to my previous house where I shared a small room with the furnace and three doors.

The space situation is evolving here and offers some opportunities.  I have a trip planned to the prototype this weekend and tour of the highlights by a local expert.  I'm sure that will stoke ideas about operations and scenery.

[basementcalling]

I cannot figure out where the electrical panel is on the track plan. The plans and the photo of the space appear oriented in different directions to me.

[Scottl]

The electrical panel is in the top right corner.  It is shown with a shallow closet and outward swinging door.

[Scottl]

An update on this layout plan.  After living in the house almost nine months and getting a better feel for our other space needs, I decided that I wanted the train space contained within walls.  There is more dust here than in my previous home and having an open space in the basement as previously proposed seems like inviting trouble. We've settled on a rectangular space 17' X 13' with the electrical box in the corner and single door into the room.  I will install baseboard heat in the room to allow me to close off the home duct system, which I hope will help reduce dust infiltration.   I expect the heat will be supplemental, but it gets cold here so I want to be sure I can maintain reasonable temperatures.  A/C needs in summer are minimal.  I've installed the subfloor and permits for the development are in hand.  I'll start serious building in the new year once I am done with work.

In late June I visited the Grande Cache Sub and had a great tour with Jeff Robertson who I was introduced to by @mark dance.  Jeff knows the line very well and we visited all of the main locales including some of the remote bridges.  It was very hot (38 deg C at one point) so trains were running with heat restrictions and we saw little traffic, but I was able to photograph and see everything.  Swan Landing, the junction on the south end with the Edson Sub (mainline) is a clear focal point with lots of interesting operations on the prototype.  It is also a very scenic location.  The coal mine and yard at the north end in Winniandy is also a fantastic setting in the mountains with a real gritty industrial feel.  I hear that they have reopened the mine with higher coal prices and CN is shipping to the coast so I can use 2021 as a prototype period, or stick with  my 2017-18 plan.

The plan below is the lower deck of what will be a double deck layout.  I have not drawn up the upper level yet, but it is basically the same so it should give you the general idea.  Things are compressed a bit due to the overall space restrictions, but all of the essential elements are there.

What I was not able to preserve from Mark's great design posted earlier here was the double ended staging associated with Jasper/Edson.  I am reluctant to have hidden turnouts as they seem to create operational hassles, so what I have drawn up here is a mainline loop and visible single ended staging. I get around the (rare) need for access to the electrical box with a semi-permanent module in front of the panel.  With the panel exposed, this means routine breaker access is not hindered, but if we require more extensive access, we can remove the module.  This staging space will be the sawmill spur on the upper deck so that offers some interesting expanded operational potential (even if the prototype no longer serves the mill).

Swan Landing is represented in its entirety here, with all tracks and prototype geometry.  This benefited from access to official plans and represents the post-2017 configuration.  The only compromise is that the length of the various west end tracks (bottom-center diagram) are adjusted to maximize train length.  All staging turnouts are visible.  The staging that runs in front of Swan Landing will be exposed (inspired by Grant Eastman's SAR approach) and easily accessible.  A big part of the prototype operational challenge here is that Swan Landing gets choked up with traffic coming and going on the Grande Cache Sub while even more traffic needs to move through on the mainline.  Heat restrictions and winter cold restrictions add to the fun- it can easily go from +35C in the summer to -40C in the winter.

I am pretty happy with this layout.  It offers less operations potential than previous versions but looks to me like 3-4 people could be kept busy.  The bridges are all given decent space for scenic treatment and the aisles provide good access for operators.  I need to adjust Hanlon location next to the helix to give some scenic space between them.

I can't get SCARM to output the scale grid in the image but the dimensions of the room are 17' X 13'. All curves are minimum 18" R and turnouts #6.  Mainline trains can be up to 12' (limited by open staging) and 10' on the Grande Cache Sub.