ESU LokSound Micro Select Direct install in Atlas GP40-2

[Billg]

John, you are correct. 

The cost is not an issue.  Modifying the frame is the problem.

I did go to a technical high school 60 years ago.  Sort of remembering filing v blocks and a parallel clamp that we made.

Conrad

Well, I didn't go to a technical high school BUT I DID STAY AT A HOLIDAY IN EXPRESS LAST NIGHT!!  (lol, just a little humor)
I broke down and bought a PROXXON mill.  Fantastic little precision tool!

[jdcolombo]

Welcome to the club, Bill.

I think the Proxxon is great for what we do in N scale.  But I've got to say that I've been doing mostly HO installs for friends these days, and the 1/8" cutter limit on the Proxxon is an issue for HO.  I'd really like to have 1/4" capability for the bigger frames.

But for N . . . it's ideal. 

John C.

[Billg]

Welcome to the club, Bill.

I think the Proxxon is great for what we do in N scale.  But I've got to say that I've been doing mostly HO installs for friends these days, and the 1/8" cutter limit on the Proxxon is an issue for HO.  I'd really like to have 1/4" capability for the bigger frames.

But for N . . . it's ideal. 

John C.

Most of my installs have been in HO also John.  I AGREE that 1/8 inch cutter takes a bit longer but the results are the same, a nice clean install!  My customers are happy!

Bill

[conrad]

Semifinal progress report

Can now say just about done.  Good enough to run on layout.  So, I did cut up the rear lens to clear my “over sized” speaker.  Both light and number boards installed.  Also added some Kapton tape to hold down the speaker enclosure.  My sanding of the enclosure to achieve a “slip” fit left me with a “close tolerance” fit.  The shell slipped on but the enclosure got hung up during removal.  Problem solved with tape as I did not want to over thin the speaker box. 

Below is my video of the sounds.  Camera about 12” away.  Quality is poor (very poor) and sound has the addition of the room’s ceiling fan.  It is what it is.  Volume is exceptional,  really need ear protection.  Video shows loco in Drive Hold mode with notches from idle to step 8 then back down.  At end, idle is set to low idle (somehow related to dynamic brake), loco can’t move but accessories powered.  At very end the spitter sounds.  I’m still on the ESU learning curve.

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Final thoughts

I enjoyed this installation, my first one where I did the frame modifications.  File, file, file, file...

Modding a 22 year loco needs some thought.  From what I remember this loco was a bit of a grinder.  Certainly louder than my Katos and newer Atlases.  So it still is noisy.  I’m thinking of replacing the trucks and maybe the worms and bearing blocks. 

Related to the above, I should have been very careful after I disassembled the loco to put back all the parts into their respective locations and orientations.  In my zeal to clean I shuffled most of the parts: axles, gears, wheel wipers, bearing blocks, etc.  This did not make the loco quieter, in fact louder.

In the same vein, my next install was going to be a 73100 into either my Atlas SD60 or SD60M.  Now however I’m leaning towards my Kato Dash 9 (23 years old).  It’s a lot quieter.  Bottom line, I really have to listen to my locos as just about all of them are over 20 years old.   

The 73100 smd LED’s don’t adequately light the loco.  I need to install the separately provided LED’s.

I am getting decoder dropouts.  It’s not driving me too crazy but when I get around to installing the LED’s I might as well add capacitors.

Thanks again for everyone's help.

Conrad

[conrad]

Forget my "forget".  Video works ok

Conrad

[tehachapifan]

Sounds great! That particular sound file is one of ESU's best, IMHO, and have it loaded in a few of my locos as well.

A word of caution on volume. Depending on certain factors, it is possible to have volume set too high leading to a speaker or decoder (amp?) failure. I've learned this the hard way and I now turn down volumes in all my installs. A telltale sign, which I suppose may or may not occur as a warning, is the onset of sound quality distortion or garbling that worsens the longer the sound is on.

[conrad]

"A word of caution on volume."

Thanks for the info.  I've run the loco for an hour or so without any distortion.  However, for my own sanity and to keep the neighborhood dogs from howling, I'll lower the volume.

Conrad

[jdcolombo]

Great work, Conrad!

Yes, caps - you'd be surprised how 440uf of keep-alive seems to solve nearly all dropout problems.

As for the noise - have you done the Ron Bearden mod to this engine?  If you haven't, try it (the mod is removing the inner bearing block from the worm gear shafts, using just the outside block to support the worm gear).  I've found it works wonders on older Atlas locos that don't have U-joint drives.  That and just a touch of Labelle plastic-compatible grease on the worm.

John C.

[conrad]

As for the noise - have you done the Ron Bearden mod to this engine?  If you haven't, try it (the mod is removing the inner bearing block from the worm gear shafts, using just the outside block to support the worm gear).  I've found it works wonders on older Atlas locos that don't have U-joint drives.  That and just a touch of Labelle plastic-compatible grease on the worm.

John C.

Win some, Lose some.

Yes, I found Ron Bearden's N Scale reprint and tried the technique.  See http://u18b.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Bearingblock09.pdf and more info in the 10/4/19 post "Bearden Bearing Block article has new address"

First used an Atlas GP7 as a test.  I have two so a comparison was easy.  Both were somewhat noisy.  The removal of the inner bearing block did make an audible improvement.  Performance was the same, but they were good runners anyway.  Bad news is my rookie mistake.  In disassembling the loco I pulled on one of the motor leads and shorted the motor to the frame.  Then (the rookie part) instead of testing on a programming track or using a current limiting resistor on the main, I plopped it right down on my DC test track and blew the TCS CN-GP decoder.  UGH! Anyway, it's now DC powered and runs quieter than its sister GP7.  Another decoder install in the queue.

As for the GP40-2 with ESU decoder - not good.  Lots of fiddling with the position of the "universal" at the end of the worm shaft.  So far, it's noisier than when I started.  My concern with the "universal" is twofold -
     Repeated pressing off and on may either split it or loosen it.
     Adjusting it is hit and miss.  Once on, moving it slightly is very difficult and to get both shafts the same length is really tough.

My plan is to take a break, breathe deep, order a bunch of Atlas drive train and truck parts and keep at it.

Conrad

[Steveruger45]

Conrad, do you have a thrust washer between the worm and remaining bearing block?
Quieting down old atlas locos is a bit of a scientific art.
I’ve had some success with putting a cut down Rapido coupler spring in the flywheel to preload the hex universal.
Not saying this will help in your case but it might.
So might renewing or at least changing the hex universal.

[jdcolombo]

The other thing I've found with older Atlas locos is that they sometimes need lubrication at the motor bearing - that is, where the motor shaft enters the motor housing.  Literally just a drop of light oil.  ONE DROP.  I actually use my wife's sewing machine oil for this, because it is about as light an oil that you can find.

John C.

[conrad]

tinker, tinker, tinker, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle.  Things are better, noise now bearable at speeds below scale 35mph.  I've tweaked the "universals", removed the thrust washers, backed off the frame half screws slightly and ORDERED PARTS.  Quieter, not as quiet as my test GP7 but better than before.

Quieting down old atlas locos is a bit of a scientific art.

Scientific art is an understatement.  Too many variables.  It's like a set of 5 equations with 10 unknowns.  Reminds me of, yikes, Operations Research.

Conrad, do you have a thrust washer between the worm and remaining bearing block?

As I remember, the thrust washers were between the inner bearing block and the worm.  I did try the washer between the worm and outer bearing block but felt it set the shaft too close to the motor.  Right now both washers are out.

I’ve had some success with putting a cut down Rapido coupler spring in the flywheel to preload the hex universal.
Not saying this will help in your case but it might.

I've seen the posts on springs but not sure if there is room.  Springs would be the last resort.

So might renewing or at least changing the hex universal.

One thing about the pandemic, I have plenty of time to order parts and keep the economy going.  I've ordered just about every drive train and truck part Atlas has for the GP40-2, they're on the way.  At one point I considered using parts from other locos but hey, why screw up several when one is enough.

The other thing I've found with older Atlas locos is that they sometimes need lubrication at the motor bearing - that is, where the motor shaft enters the motor housing.  Literally just a drop of light oil.  ONE DROP.  I actually use my wife's sewing machine oil for this, because it is about as light an oil that you can find.

John C.

Yes, I use a light oil on the motor bearings.  Less than a drop (use straight pin as applicator).  I also use Labelle "teflon" grease on the worm, again applied with a straight pin.  I don't think I have a motor issue because lateral or axial finger pressure doesn't cause any noise.  My guess - "grind" is somewhere in the geartrain,  parts are coming.  And, as I write this, what about the relationship between the center of the worm and the axis of the meshing truck gear?

Making this post is calming because, compared to decoder installs, this can drive you mad.

And I've finally found out how to do quotes!

Conrad

[conrad]

One thing about the pandemic, I have plenty of time to order parts and keep the economy going.  I've ordered just about every drive train and truck part Atlas has for the GP40-2, they're on the way.  At one point I considered using parts from other locos but hey, why screw up several when one is enough.

Succress, runs like a Kato, well almost.

Atlas parts came in 3 days, great service.  First I overhauled the trucks.  I replaced the wheel wipers, gear case and gear set.  Kept the wheels sets (not in stock) and truck frames.  Conducta Lube micro drop in the the wiper pockets and a little teflon grease on the worm.  Runs like a champ.  I'm really pleased, no need to replace the worm and bearing blocks now.

The grind must have been in the gear tower or perhaps the worm to gear mesh.

Anyway, all that remains now is to add caps and larger led's.

Conrad

[Steveruger45]

Succress, runs like a Kato, well almost.

Atlas parts came in 3 days, great service.  First I overhauled the trucks.  I replaced the wheel wipers, gear case and gear set.  Kept the wheels sets (not in stock) and truck frames.  Conducta Lube micro drop in the the wiper pockets and a little teflon grease on the worm.  Runs like a champ.  I'm really pleased, no need to replace the worm and bearing blocks now.

The grind must have been in the gear tower or perhaps the worm to gear mesh.

Anyway, all that remains now is to add caps and larger led's.

Conrad

Glad you got it sorted Conrad.
Gear towers can wear on those nubs that the frame rests on.  That can put the bull gear too close a mesh with the worm.  But that is just one of the many possible Causes for a noisy loco.

[conrad]

Lights, Action, Capacitors!

Received another LokSound 73100 for my SD60 plus pre-wired 0204 LED’s and 220uf, 16v smd caps from SBS4DCC.

First, the 0204 LED’s were just too small for me to manipulate.  My fear was that the very short leads required for this install will not give me enough room to remove the enamel insulation.  In addition, as shown, the full size ESU LED’s fit (more on the Front Headlight later).

Second, two 220uf caps fit nicely into the light shield with the blue wire running down between the two frame halves.  Blue wire (+12.9v) goes all the way back to the +UB pad on the bottom of the decoder.  I did this because getting to the +12 on the top of the board was too tricky for me.  Green wire to the common at the onboard caps. 

Photo taken prior to connecting the caps so that programming can be done with JMRI.  I had to change the lights from AUX 1 & 2 to Headlight Front & Rear.  This went well except the front Headlight did not work.  It was installed with the correct polarity.  Tried to remove it with a snips but broke off one of the decoder’s solder pads.  Game over, will use on board AUX1 LED for the Front Headlight.

Turns out my DCC++/JMRI on an Arduino Uno will read the decoder with caps connected.



This is the end of the GP40-2 LokSound decoder installation.  Took quite a while but I’m really pleased with the results.  The shell is back on and hopefully will never have to come off again.

For a 22 year old loco it runs and sounds great.

Conrad