Best Of The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread

[randgust]

I'm still struggling with the single switchback on a railroad that steep, which no matter how you look at it, places a Shay nose-down somewhere on that hill.   I don't challenge it, just am in awe.

As this Shay was custom-built by Lima for an existing line, I have to believe it was built with one of the lowest firebox crown sheets ever to take it.   I was stunned before I confirmed the switchback thing.

If you've ever been in a 'normal' steam locomotive cab and watched the water glass bobbing, and sometimes disappearing on a sharp downhill grade (we're talkin' 3%, not 9%) you suddenly realize that this is how boilers explode.   So you design the boiler with a crown sheet low.   The Baldwin logging 2-8-2's were like that, a low crown sheet to handle 4-5% grades running downhill.

Even on Cass, the section of track between the two switchbacks is on a significantly easier grade where you are running nose-down.  When you hit Whittaker and Bald Knob, you're always nose-up.

And unlike a logging railroad, at least your hopper cars have air brakes so you wouldn't have to be 'under the train' at all times downhill in case of a broken coupler or a runaway even if that's normal practice.   Are there any stories of runaways on this branch?

If you've ridden Cass it's amazing to watch, they have air but they still put a brakeman on every two cars, ratcheting up the handbrake wheels up just to the point the wheels aren't slipping.  Car wheels have spots painted on them so they can make sure they aren't applying the handbrakes too hard.  To see the spots, the brakemen lean way out over the cars at the ladders, face first, hanging on to the handrails - which I christened the 'Cass Hang'.  Reinforces just how difficult a railroad it is, but they run it very safely.

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-cass-scenic-railroad-state-park-west-virginia-usa-72093949.html?pv=1&stamp=2&imageid=F04093E4-7625-4E3D-8CA1-D35EBD705C09&p=22839&n=0&orientation=0&pn=1&searchtype=0&IsFromSearch=1&srch=foo%3dbar%26st%3d0%26pn%3d1%26ps%3d100%26sortby%3d2%26resultview%3dsortbyPopular%26npgs%3d0%26qt%3drailroad%2520brakeman%26qt_raw%3drailroad%2520brakeman%26lic%3d3%26mr%3d0%26pr%3d0%26ot%3d0%26creative%3d%26ag%3d0%26hc%3d0%26pc%3d%26blackwhite%3d%26cutout%3d%26tbar%3d1%26et%3d0x000000000000000000000%26vp%3d0%26loc%3d0%26imgt%3d0%26dtfr%3d%26dtto%3d%26size%3d0xFF%26archive%3d1%26groupid%3d%26pseudoid%3d%26a%3d%26cdid%3d%26cdsrt%3d%26name%3d%26qn%3d%26apalib%3d%26apalic%3d%26lightbox%3d%26gname%3d%26gtype%3d%26xstx%3d0%26simid%3d%26saveQry%3d%26editorial%3d1%26nu%3d%26t%3d%26edoptin%3d%26customgeoip%3d%26cap%3d1%26cbstore%3d1%26vd%3d0%26lb%3d%26fi%3d2%26edrf%3d%26ispremium%3d1%26flip%3d0%26pl%3d

The employee timetables during that period must have had some extraordinarily interesting special instructions for operating that branch, if anybody has one.   

Another really interesting feature of Cass I've never seen anyplace else is a small stream of water running over the locomotive wheel treads to cool them during braking descent.  Before they did the major track rebuild (when I first went down there in the 70's), the week growth from daily watering from this was downright luxuriant.

[u18b]

Runaway.  Yes

The year was 1942.  Crew was in a bit of a hurry wanting to go hunting. 
Shay #5 was easing 7 loaded cars down from the mine above Vindex.  So the 9.1% grade may have come into play.

Engineer's daughter said they were going too fast and train got away.
No one hurt.  But coal everywhere.  #5 was severely damaged. Knocked out electricity to Vindex for days.

This may have been the reason they Then kept to the max load at 6 cars.

[u18b]

Randy.  Your comments were interesting. 

My book says that they set the brakes at the mine.   Then eased off until train was moving.  I thus conclude that they rode the brakes the whole 1.5 miles down 7 and the 9% grades.

And you are correct.   No turntable or wye to turn the Shay.  It was always nose up or down at some point.

Though I note that it was nose up on the 9% grade.

 

[Philip H]

running backwards, loaded on a 9% grade.  Must have been a sight to see.

[Chris333]

Supposedly this is the largest Shay ever built:
http://www.gearedsteam.com/shay/images/k/kansas_city_southern_900.jpg
It was designed for 13% grades.

It was used to deliver freight at Kansas City up the steep west side of the river bank on a 13% grade.

Didn't even know KCS had Shays.

[randgust]

Wow, yeah, I had to look that up - empty weight over 286,000 (143 ton) beating out WM 6 by about 3 ton or so.   What a beast.

I'm surprised there isn't more press about that.  Other than that builders photo, I'm coming up with nothing about the locomotive or just where  a 13% grade is around Kansas City and why.   Like the Chaffee, you have to want it real bad to lay track that way.

Unless you've spent some time in a cab, I don't think most modelers appreciate downhill grades.   It's like looking down a roller coaster, and it can get away from you really, really fast.  And because it's steel on steel, with just a little help from wet leaves, water, etc., you can slide your wheels way easier than you think.  Now remember how air brakes work, you can't pump them, make a set and hold it and hope you don't leak off, either that or set handbrakes and drag downhill a bit, a whole lot safer.     I've been in the cab only once on a near downhill runaway, the sense that the entire train is sliding down the track with locked brakes is an interesting feeling, even at 10mph, and that was only on a 2.6% downhill grade.    Only thing that stopped us was the helper unit on the end dumping sand and going into full emergency.    So yeah, looking at that branch and the locomotive literally sends chills up me!

The other thing here is that it's hard to model grades like that because steel on steel has an adhesion factor of about 25% (without sand), and our 'slick wheel' N scale locomotives on nickel silver rail I've measured run around 11-14% on the low end with the best ever measurement of worn brass wheels on clean rail at 22%.    Our cars might be lighter but our models don't have the grab that the prototype does on the railhead.

[bbunge]

Wow, yeah, I had to look that up - empty weight over 286,000 (143 ton) beating out WM 6 by about 3 ton or so.   What a beast.

I'm surprised there isn't more press about that.  Other than that builders photo, I'm coming up with nothing about the locomotive or just where  a 13% grade is around Kansas City and why.   Like the Chaffee, you have to want it real bad to lay track that way.

.....

I will hazard a guess to climb up from the river bank, much like the Madison, IN grade on the PRR (5.89%) where their solution was a specialized steam locomotive and later modified SD-7's. 

Bob

[k27463]

The grades at Cass are hard to understand until you see a clear photo -- in this case, consider that the train descending on the left is on a -lesser- grade.

And those guys lean wayyyyy out to check the wheels.


Looking at photos I don't think many other Shays had those counterweight straps -- excellent find and detail to model.


The KCS Shay, from my understanding, was built as a switch engine -- something along the lines of "it would be nice to find something that could pull an entire yard worth of cars."

[randgust]

great shots.   If you look up on the switchback picture, look just above the switch on the hillside rail.  What looks to be a derail is actually a slip rail point.  They deliberately designed in a feature so that as the rail 'slipped' downhill, once it got to a full rail length, they'd pull an entire 33' rail and take it back up to the top again.  I've never seen that anyplace else, but it testifies as to what a 9% grade looks like.

I love Cass because it's real, even though they've upgraded the track with heavier rail and ballast.  But same impossible curves and grades as the original logging railroad alignment up the mountain.

[Chris333]

Supposedly the KCS Shay switched the Folgers plant that is now called "Roasters block apartments" on 7th and Broadway. It involved some street running. But yeah I don't see a grade? Perhaps the grade was where I70 was built?

Edit: it is possible this was the grade: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1eFIUazF0hrzidYPg90Cn3WwOybwvp8rR&ll=39.097857586800146%2C-94.59458085000001&z=15

[u18b]

Well, I hit a snag.... though an expected snag.

I started having some cogging.  That meant, as I feared, the upper worm is worn down too much to be useful any longer.

This is a natural part of this loco design- but made worse by my torturing this Shay.

As other observed a long time ago, a brass worm turning a brass gear (similar metals) is a bad combo.

So I want to explore- is there any way (short of a few thousand dollars) to have a Delryn gear made (or something like it)?

A brass worm is the only way to go (plastic worms are just not as true often- think Life Like SW1200).

So I'm wishing I could get a worm gear replacement.   The one with the screw that looks like a hat.
It's this one.



What would be my options?

Any suggestions?

[randgust]

Well, my first instinct would be to look at any diesel truck design that ever used a steel retainer pin and a brass worm - where you'd have a hole through the worm gear that was at least centered and cocentric, and a worm that was designed to fit.   You could laterally tweak the motor tolerance to fit the way it is designed, and you can either bush down or drill up the worm gear to fit the screw. 

I'm currently messing with a Life-Like PA and noting that it's one of the newer designs that still held on the trucks with a pin and had well-made gears.  Many old ones were a true POS but not all.

I think this is solvable, but I'd still worry more about the bottom one on the crank.  That's unlike anything else out there.   Maybe just do like Lima and drown it in grease every day whether it needs it or not.   Heisler certainly made a 'big deal' out of enclosing their gearbox like a differential.

If you can find a commercial or legacy worm/worm gear pair to adapt, at least you'll have a plan for wear replacement.   I use old Roco red gears in my Heisler and the plastic-on-plastic gears regularly wear out between the worm and worm gear, and I've accumulated a pile of replacements and have just learned to deal with it.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Oh @narrowminded

[peteski]

I would recommend for a brass/steel combo.  Steel worm and brass gear (or the other way around).
IIRC, @mmagliaro gets his gears from some source in Poland.

[Chris333]

I believe you can cut a gear like that using a lathe and a thread tap with the same pitch. The gear teeth would end up dished and mesh better with the worm.

There are many different videos showing how. This is just two:

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