Concrete Tie strip for N Scale and Code 40 Rail

[robert3985]

WOW, a lot happening!  All good.   ...

...I'll try to digest and fill stuff in a bit tomorrow.  Thanks to all for your interest.   This is being fun!

@narrowminded Mark, I haven't been this excited during the Christmas season since I was a kid!  N-scale's been waiting a LONG time for these track products!  This is going to kick my butt to finish the track plan on my Devils Slide siding and Ideal Concrete spur to use these there. 

Merry Christmas!!

Bob Gilmore

[ednadolski]

The the individually painted rail clips make big difference for realistic appearance, contrasting with the concrete tie, but I suspect that is a tedious task.

Not any worse than flextrack, it's just a matter of following the rail with the tip of a sable brush, and don't let the paint get too runny.

To me the most tedious part is trying to cover up the webbing on the flextrack with ballast, yet still keeping it off of the clips.  The tiny grains are hard to control, and the result still basically looks like a hillbilly grin.  (The webbing is way oversized for what it does, but I suspect that's an outcome of ME's re-working the mold a while back.)

For the strips I'm thinking of some kind of pad or block 'printing' to apply paint or ink to all the clips on a strip at once.   I have to learn more about inks, linoleum pads, etc.

Ed

[narrowminded]

Not any worse than flextrack, it's just a matter of following the rail with the tip of a sable brush, and don't let the paint get too runny.

For the strips I'm thinking of some kind of pad or block 'printing' to apply paint or ink to all the clips on a strip at once.   I have to learn more about inks, linoleum pads, etc.

Ed

@ednadolski I was thinking along the same lines.  I suspect ink might be the better choice for the fine details, a thinner consistency to not hide detail.  Something along the order of a Sharpie with a small, flatter tip.  Also a better ink for colorfastness.  Maybe there's a fillable device like this that can be filled with your own mixture or maybe just making an applicator that uses the replaceable tips available for existing paint/ ink pens.  This will be investigated. 

That mini test scene you displayed with your fabulously weathered and detailed car makes for an exquisite display!  I see what you were after and why this refined track look was so important to you.  Just amazing.

[peteski]

Not any worse than flextrack, it's just a matter of following the rail with the tip of a sable brush, and don't let the paint get too runny.

For the strips I'm thinking of some kind of pad or block 'printing' to apply paint or ink to all the clips on a strip at once.   I have to learn more about inks, linoleum pads, etc.

Ed

I just thought that placing an exact-fitting mask over the tie strip and then shooting couple of spritzes of paint from an airbrush (then repeating this process with more tie strips). would be much easier and quicker. But if you don't mind painting each individual set of clips, the more power to you.  It is not bad when you just have to do couple of strips, but if you have to paint 100 or more strips (for the main line on a layout), painting each individual set of clips seems a bit tedious.

[narrowminded]

I just thought that placing an exact-fitting mask over the tie strip and then shooting couple of spritzes of paint from an airbrush (then repeating this process with more tie strips). would be much easier and quicker. But if you don't mind painting each individual set of clips, the more power to you.  It is not bad when you just have to do couple of strips, but if you have to paint 100 or more strips (for the main line on a layout), painting each individual set of clips seems a bit tedious.

I love the idea but I'm not sure it can be made to work readily on these details.  The height is only about .003"/ .005" so the mask would have to be approximately that thin.  Then it might have to follow the spacing and angular changes in curves.   That's also assuming folks will take the time to add a different color to all of those tie plates instead of just leaving them the same as the tie color.  It's a nice option to be able to see and detail them for highly detailed scenes and extreme closeup photographs but folks have made it this far without it.

With that said, I got an idea tonight so tried something that looks like it may work well for painting the tie plate details and might even be a neat trick for other detail applications.  I took a fine paint nib out of a paint pen, ground the tip to a small chisel type point with a sander in a die grinder, placed the nib in my pin vise to act as a handle, and used Model Master acrylic diluted with air brush thinner as the paint, just dipping it in as I would a brush and blotting any excess on a paper scrap.  With the opti-visor in place and some decent light it was easy to get just enough paint on just the plate, moving right along, plate after plate with an occasional stop to reload.   And when there was an error all it took was a blot with a paper towel and hit it again. 

I kept some fresh thinner to give the tip a dip and paper towel blot if it started drying a little, getting thicker on the nib point than I liked.  And with the way paint naturally shrinks at it dries and with this thinned and not over applied with the chisel pointed nib, it helps to retain the fine detail... I think.   I'll check it tomorrow and see how it's doing but so far it's got very good promise.  It also allows you to use the full range of colors you have for everything else, not stuck with the color palette of the pen manufacturer and his wonderfully shiny paint.   (I already see uses for this elsewhere even if it doesn't work here.)

Cleanup of the nib was with acetone.  It cleans it out, ready for another use.  And in case you don't already have some, get some.   Very handy stuff around modelling.  It's the solvent/ reducer for Pliobond and CA and it does not effect the tie material.  I use it to clean up any tools, syringes, tweezers, clogged CA bottle tips and lids that won't go back on, or for any dry acrylic paint removal on metal, delrin, or this resin (not on styrene or ABS).  Yes, the tie bed material is resistant to acetone and MEK!  How convenient.   If it's not already in your bag of tricks it'll become a must have for this work and much more.  Just keep it away from your styrene or ABS unless, of course, you want to glue it.   

BTW, MEK and acetone are very similar in their makeup and for practical purposes in our modelling they can be treated as the same thing with the primary difference being one is faster drying than the other.  Both are pretty fast but the acetone is the measurably faster drying of the two.

[peteski]

Mark, my mask idea was for painting the tie strip before installing it on the layout (and even before installing the track).  The tie strip would still be straight and track-less. I imagine the tie strip would be painted the concrete color first. Then mask placed over it, and then a quick spritz of rusty brown paint to give the rail clips some color. Rinse and repeat for the next tie strip.

The mask wouldn't have to be all that thin, as long as the opening for the paint is shaped like upside down pyramid.  It was just a simple idea,

[tom mann]

Has @GaryHinshaw seen this?

[garethashenden]

Have you given any though to manufacturing/distributing/pricing for this?

[narrowminded]

Mark, my mask idea was for painting the tie strip before installing it on the layout (and even before installing the track).  The tie strip would still be straight and track-less. I imagine the tie strip would be painted the concrete color first. Then mask placed over it, and then a quick spritz of rusty brown paint to give the rail clips some color. Rinse and repeat for the next tie strip.

The mask wouldn't have to be all that thin, as long as the opening for the paint is shaped like upside down pyramid.  It was just a simple idea,

I do think painting the tie bed and rail before to lay it has merit for those going for high detail unless it's a pretty small module that is easy to work on the bench.  As far as the mask, it may work and would have the best chance if done on the bench before to lay. 

Here's a pic of the first try at painting the tie plates with the nib.  The piece was a test piece already sprayed bombed with Krylon Camo Brown and has a scrap of rail just set in place on one side only.  It's not the best it could be and the tie plate color is MM Rust applied with the nib with the dressed tip.  It could be a different shade but I think it demos that the plate paint can be applied with pretty good accuracy.  With some dry brushing and weathering I think it could be made to be pretty accurate looking stuff.  The pencil is there as a reminder of how ridiculously oversized the picture is, maybe too much so to represent even modelled track.

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So far this work that started some months ago has been well worth it.  To me, the viability of the method is totally proven.  It really works well and mechanically holds the rail gauge dimension very accurately.   What may still be warrented is some tweeking of dimensions for the best cosmetic representation of real track and the proper balance between seeing it with the naked eye and then under closeup photography.  I won't be surprised as the experts get it in hand that they may want to make some adjustments in that area.  This window of adjustment if needed at all, will be very minor, in the few thousandths inch range.  Making two different versions could also be an option, super fine detail and runner detail.   My main areas of concern are the spike height and width, and plate height, and possibly being too small, not too big, with the rest being good as is... I think.   We'll let the experts weigh in on that before to call it final. 

And again, to all, thanks for your interest.  

[narrowminded]

Have you given any though to manufacturing/distributing/pricing for this?

Yes, I have.  It's very early in the whole effort and so I'm reluctant to say just yet (it's hard to change that once out there) but what my first independent deliberations came up with are very much in line with what hand laid tie bed from one of the major suppliers of hand laid track supplies would cost.  It was slightly favorable, not more, and that was only discovered several days later when it occurred to me to compare the price per foot of each.  

First thoughts are that they will be packaged in 8 piece bundles yielding 3'+ of track, the same length that ME rail comes in.  That seems logical and practical to me.   

As far as using distributors, at least while getting this off the ground and flushing out some other product lines that I've been working on, I expect that I will furnish the material directly and that may be as fancy as it ever gets.  I'm not expecting huge volume for this and doubtful that there's room in it for distributor markups that would be sufficient to make it viable for them, and specialty enough that the masses won't be the customer for it from both the install skills as well as the extra effort to complete an installation.  I will let things take their natural course as far as where this goes down the road.

Edit add:  OK, I'll throw this out there but please do not take it as final.  I expect that the 8 packs will be $10.  That is definitely not final.

[peteski]

I do think painting the tie bed and rail before to lay it has merit for those going for high detail unless it's a pretty small module that is easy to work on the bench.  As far as the mask, it may work and would have the best chance if done on the bench before to lay. 

Mark, I think that my point has been missed.  I was specifically  talking about concrete ties, where you are showing wooden ties.  To me painting concrete ties before installing the rail seems like the only reasonable construction method, since the concrete color and the color of the rail/rail-clips is quite different.  Again, that's just me.  My suggestion has been made after I saw Ed's examples of his finished track.

[ednadolski]

I imagine the tie strip would be painted the concrete color first. Then mask placed over it, and then a quick spritz of rusty brown paint to give the rail clips some color. Rinse and repeat for the next tie strip.

One concerns wrt a mask is avoiding the paint bleed-thru.

In the past I've used the WS paint pens to paint the tie clips on the flextrack by just running the tip along the rail and lightly touching along the tops of the clips.   It goes fairly quickly once you get going (despite that the WS pens themselves are rather coarse and somewhat spotty, and occasionally will spit blobs).  There are 'real' artist paint pens that give better control (and more color choices) which I intend to try.

One point about pre-painting the tie strips is getting paint in between the guides where the rail gets glued down. As Mark mentioned, you can mask it with square styrene or such, but I'm thinking I'd rather avoid the problem and airbrush the ties after the rail is installed. (Airbrushing has other benefits, i.e., custom colors, and avoids nasty spray can smells that take forever to subside).

It's a new process, so part of the fun is figuring out the different ways to do it

Ed

[peteski]

One concerns wrt a mask is avoiding the paint bleed-thru.

Unless you are applying really wet coat with an airbrush, that should not be a problem, especially with a 3D printed or laser cut mask.  But again, it was just a suggestion.

[GaryHinshaw]

Has @GaryHinshaw seen this?

Yes, this is a very cool development!  I haven't had too much feedback on the concrete tie project because 95% of my track in permanently installed, and I ain't going back to redo it...  But 3 cheers for the effort!  I will offer a few comments based on my experience:

* I love the look of the finer ties and code 40 rail head, but I'm a little concerned about the printing striations.  Perhaps it's completely innocuous in person, but it does rather stand out in Ed's photos.

* I wish there was something like a code 46 (or so) rail with a finer head, so that we could have some contrast between mainline and branch/siding rail.  (And code 35 for the latter would be awesome - but neither is likely to appear in my modelling lifetime.)

* I'm totally fine with painting the rail clips individually.  It takes me less time than ballasting.  A mask might work, but I could easily imagine that the over-spray would be harder to clean up than the occasional stray brush stroke would be.

* To me, ballast makes or breaks the track illusion more than anything else.  Here are a few (repeat) shots of my ME track with Smith & Sons Penn/Ohio #50 limestone, still unweathered: (Ed, I agree you need a darker ballast)





The chunky ties and oversize rail are pretty obvious up close, but then note that even the fine tread FVM wheels (on the right-hand car) are wider than the C55 railhead, so compromises abound, as always. 

Anyway, I don't mean to be negative at all -- it's a really great project!  And I'm quite interested in the wood tie developments, because I still have all of my industrial track to lay.  My current plans are to use ME code 40 flex, but these tie strips might convince me to switch.

But the biggest need of all is code 40 turnout parts!  (Especially a robust throw-bar design.)  Then, you will have my undivided attention!!   

-gfh

[ednadolski]

Here are a few (repeat) shots of my ME track with Smith & Sons Penn/Ohio #50 limestone, still unweathered: (Ed, I agree you need a darker ballast)

@GaryHinshaw I wish I could find that ballast somewhere anywhere!    I thought it had transmogrified into the Scenic Express and I have some of that (maybe Light Gray...?  I don't recall the name offhand), but it still doesn't look like what you've got there.

I'm also very envious at how neatly you've applied the ballast!   Any chance you could be persuaded to post a (quick & informal) video?  (some things have to be seen, and are not easily conveyed by words).

Ed