scaletrains.com Dash-9's are shipping

[MRLX1020]

Peteski,
   That's why I was looking at the Scaletrains Operator Dash-9. Both of my BNSF tier 4 Gevos look great except for the applied brake cylinders on the trucks. Almost every one is crooked with several approaching a 45 degree angle. It might not bother some, but for me it takes away from what is really a nicely detailed locomotive. I wish I knew of a way to fix them without the risk of braking them off. Also the Operator would not make my Katos seem so plain.
Ralph

Are the the C4 variety with the weight management fulcrum on the center axles?

If yes, the angled cylinders you mentioned are correct...

[ednadolski]

Oh come on Ed, unless you have never been involved in regular operating sessions (or sunning NTRAK layout during tran shows), you know that no operator is perfect. Oopses will happen.

Of course accidents can (and do) happen to anyone.  However if that's what you meant by "more or less ham-fisted operators", then all of us are that.

But if the oops happens to a less detailed model, it is not as bad as when your super-details model falls off the track and lands on its side (or worse).  Just saying . . .

I'm just saying I don't think that detailed models are quite as fragile as you seem to presume.  For example, the stainless steel wire parts that I make are only 0.005" diameter, but actually are not all that easy to bend or knock off  (brass that size would be quite a different matter, so it's not such a good material choice).  They can (and do) take the occasional knock or bump without too much in the way of ill effect.

That said, if your models are repeatedly "falling off the track" and/or subjected to hard knocks, then common sense would seem to dictate that fixing the track or improving your handling techniques is in order. 

I'm not against super-detailing, just saying that more basic locos have their place.

Seems to me we're pretty much in agreement on that.

Also, pretty much all models I have that have been super-detailed at the factory have visible glue or even fingerprints with CA glue fogging on the model's surface.  I understand that this is because they are done on an assembly line where things are done as fast as possible (neatness is not the priority). I guess that is a compromise modelers are willing to accept for having factory installed details glued onto the shell.  I would rather have well decorated model with less details than one with sloppily applied details.

Poor workmanship is a separate issue, which you can get regardless of the detail level. 

Ed

[ednadolski]

It seems like the idea of supplying an "operator" level of detail with a package of customer-applied super details is being tried again by Scaletrains.

So are they doing like FVM, and providing models with 'dimples' instead of the chunky, molded-on 'details'?

Ed

[peteski]

Poor workmanship is a separate issue, which you can get regardless of the detail level. 

Ed

Of course.  But you will never see glue spots or CA fogged shells on those average-detailed models like Kato (because those are never assembled with glue - all parts snap-fit). But if you give me any currently made loco with lots of added details, I will find glue smears or other flaws.

I still think that if a modeler wants extra details, then can add add them themselves, and since they don't get paid piecemeal, they can do a much cleaner job.

[kiwi_bnsf]

So I'm super-excited about this release — I'm so happy that ScaleTrains has decided to release these even though Kato has produced them previously. There is definitely room in N scale for duplication of models with a greater attention to detail.

Frankly I don't understand all the criticism in this thread for ScaleTrains creating a super-detailed model in their Rivet Counter line. If that's not your cup-of-tea, then there is the operator line, or the earlier Kato releases. It clearly makes sense to differentiate from what has gone before with a higher standard.

For me personally, the level of detail in the new Rivet Counter Dash 9s is well worth the money. The separate air tanks in the fuel tanks are alone worth the investment. @ednadolski did an amazing job replacing the air tanks on his Kato Dash 9s, but not all of us have the skills or time to achieve those results. These new models go quite a bit further towards that level of detail.

Of all the separately applied grabs and details, Scale Trains are at least producing finer mouldings than you will find on BLI or Intermountain (and I own multiple examples of both).

I don't think "Ham-fisted" operators are a reason for a manufacturer not to aim higher. My Rivet Counter models will not spend any time in a glass case — they will be thrashed on my home layout and our exhibition layout. If they have an accident, then so be it, but I think I can live with the occasional missing grab or cab-side mirror — that doesn't ruin the whole model.

My Kato Dash 9s are all being sold — they do not hold a candle to these new models.

I have not run into major issues with CA fingermarks or other issues with separately applied details. I also take issue with the fact that models on a production line are completed "as fast as possible" with no attention to quality. If you watch the videos from Rapido Trains, you can see the lengths and QC checks that go into these models in China. I would not rush to assume that manufacturers are all out to make the maximum buck from the minimum effort.

I've always been pleasantly surprised to find that email interactions with the guys at ScaleTrains, Rapido, Fox Valley and others reveals a group of people quite passionate about making accurate and quality models. They are quick to make good on inaccuracies and fix issues, and are only too happy to receive constructive feedback/criticism.

I've already voted with my wallet and have seven Rivet Counter Dash 9s with sound on their way. I look forward to future runs and AC4400CWs as well. Kato might have great mechanisms but they have neglected this market by sitting on their Dash 9, and AC4400CW tooling by not offering more regular runs, more variation in decoration, nor factory sound.

I'm glad that another manufacturer is pushing the envelope. I wish them well.

Cheers

Tim





 

[Bob]

Here's hoping that ScaleTrains stays in the N scale market.  I only ordered one of the NS units, though I have four of their ET44s and probably 30 of their various freight cars.  The locos are just gorgeous and all of mine run great.

[SF Chief]

Frankly I don't understand all the criticism in this thread for ScaleTrains creating a super-detailed model in their Rivet Counter line. If that's not your cup-of-tea, then there is the operator line, or the earlier Kato releases. It clearly makes sense to differentiate from what has gone before with a higher standard.

Agree completely.  We now can choose more detail if we want it.  I've run the Scale Trains BNSF GEVOs on NTrak with no problems (nothing's fallen off yet) and expect to do the same with the beautiful Dash-9s that just arrived (though the plows might need to be filed down a tad).  I expect to keep a few Kato Dash-9s and Gevos, however--when I spot an overly enthusiastic young fan the Scale Trains locos come off and the Katos go on...just in case.

Rick

[peteski]

...

Frankly I don't understand all the criticism in this thread for ScaleTrains creating a super-detailed model in their Rivet Counter line. If that's not your cup-of-tea, then there is the operator line, or the earlier Kato releases. It clearly makes sense to differentiate from what has gone before with a higher standard.

Tim,
I'm not against factory-made super-detailed models.  If you want that level of detail, and willign to spend premium over lower detail models, all the power to you.  I own several of them and I'm not happy with the quality of the finish (for the reasons I mentioned earlier). I would rather have less detail and cleaner looking model, but that is just my opinion.   I'm not lobbying anybody to boycott hose models.
As far as critiques go, yes, I'm doing that, but shouldn't I be allowed to voice my (positive or  negative) opinion on a forum.  I'm not just blindly mentioning that those models suck (like a "hater" would). I present my valid reasons why I those types of models are not my coup of tea.

For me personally, the level of detail in the new Rivet Counter Dash 9s is well worth the money. The separate air tanks in the fuel tanks are alone worth the investment. @ednadolski did an amazing job replacing the air tanks on his Kato Dash 9s, but not all of us have the skills or time to achieve those results. These new models go quite a bit further towards that level of detail.

You just further proved my point.  If a modeler (especially excellent modeler like Ed) decides to super-detail a simpler model, they will do an awesome and clean job.  But the factory applied details will never be as cleanly added, or look as good as the ones carefully applied to a model by the modeler themselves.
But if you have the money and want the factory-produced super-details model, all the power to you.  I'm not trying to prevent you from buying one or a dozen.

Of all the separately applied grabs and details, Scale Trains are at least producing finer mouldings than you will find on BLI or Intermountain (and I own multiple examples of both).

I never disputed that.  But the moulding quality is still miles behind what Kato can do. All you have to do is to take those models and compare the moulding quality.

I don't think "Ham-fisted" operators are a reason for a manufacturer not to aim higher. My Rivet Counter models will not spend any time in a glass case — they will be thrashed on my home layout and our exhibition layout. If they have an accident, then so be it, but I think I can live with the occasional missing grab or cab-side mirror — that doesn't ruin the whole model.

I'm sure that you are correct that manufacturers do not produce less detailed models to make them more damage resistant - that is just a natural side effect of having the model with a simpler shell with less fragile glued-on details.  I shouldn't have used "ham-fisted". I should have just stated "average modeler/operator during ops sessions, or on NTRAK layouts, where models do occasionally get roughly handled, or fall off the track".  But that was not the main reason for me not being thrilled with those super-detailed models., My main reason for not being all excited about them is the sub-par assembly quality. And I should not call it "sub-par" either. Just not what I like to see in such highly-detailed model. The quality is exactly what one would expect from a factory-made model like that.

My Kato Dash 9s are all being sold — they do not hold a candle to these new models.

That's your prerogative - nobody is trying to stop you from the "upgrade".  If you are looking for super-detailed and more-expensive model which does not have that famous Kato mechanism,  then you are correct that Kato's models do not hold a candle to Scale Trains Rivet Counter  models. I'm not disputing that for an instant.

I have not run into major issues with CA fingermarks or other issues with separately applied details. I also take issue with the fact that models on a production line are completed "as fast as possible" with no attention to quality. If you watch the videos from Rapido Trains, you can see the lengths and QC checks that go into these models in China. I would not rush to assume that manufacturers are all out to make the maximum buck from the minimum effort.

Well then you are either lucky, or your standards are different than mine.  I suspect it is the later. Again, all that counts is that you are happy with your purchases.
As far as the assembly quality goes, regardless of how you see it, it is a job they do day after day, and I'm sure they have some sort of quota to meet.  They are not some individual modeler sitting in a workshop who is able to spend as much time as they want to very carefully and fastidiously add details to their model.

But again, I'm not trying to dissuade anybody from buying those super-detailed models. Just presenting my opinion of them. You can use your own mind and are able to make your own purchasing decisions using your own reasoning.

[ljudice]

If anything, my D9's are even more carefully assembled than the ET44's......

Considering getting one more, though I want more of the dashed frame stripe units on my roster than repaints...

[ednadolski]

I don't think "Ham-fisted" operators are a reason for a manufacturer not to aim higher.

Thanks, you have very succinctly and eloquently captured my precise point.

For me personally, the level of detail in the new Rivet Counter Dash 9s is well worth the money. The separate air tanks in the fuel tanks are alone worth the investment. @ednadolski did an amazing job replacing the air tanks on his Kato Dash 9s, but not all of us have the skills or time to achieve those results. These new models go quite a bit further towards that level of detail.

Thanks again for the kind words, but hand-made parts always have a level of crudeness compared to factory/machine produced parts (especially mine).  More so they are a major PITA and very time consuming to make that way, and the effort does not scale: there is a reason why I have so few completed models, and so many abandoned projects and layouts over the years.  (This is all supposed to be fun, right? )

Anything that mfrs do to make that easier is very welcome in my book.  We get to vote on it with our wallets, which in the end are the only votes that count for anything

Ed

[ednadolski]

I would rather have less detail and cleaner looking model, but that is just my opinion.

You can always trade/sell/swap for some Katos, if that's your preference.

shouldn't I be allowed to voice my (positive or  negative) opinion on a forum.

Honestly I don't see anyone saying otherwise.  Seems to me they are just doing the same as you - offering their opinions.   

And FWIW, just like everyone else here, you are free to make use of the "Ignore User" option if you don't care to see any of those opinions (tho to to me that seems to defeat the purpose of participating in a discussion forum).

But the factory applied details will never be as cleanly added, or look as good as the ones carefully applied to a model by the modeler themselves.

We can disagree on this point.  Parts such as say grabirons should be more consistent and accurate if produced by a machine, likewise for drilled holes and such.  Hand applications have to be done repeatably and consistently, and if not then the process is broken.

The moulding quality is still miles behind what Kato can do.

I haven't (yet) seen the STs, so I'm not in a position to compare.  That said,  I'm always impressed with Kato's tooling and printing, which is about as good as it gets.  Offhand, I'd say only MT is on par. 

Aside: it seems somewhat ironic, that despite their crisp tooling, Kato's shells have plenty of inaccuracies and their market has never been about the 'rivet counter modeler'.  (This is why they still make 'jackrabbit' locos, and they have not updated their Dash-9 and AC44 products in so long.)

My main reason for not being all excited about them is the inferior assembly quality. And I should not call it "inferior" either. It is actually exactly what one would expect from a factory-made model like that.

I call it a bug rather than a feature, so I don't expect it.  But maybe that's just me.

As far as the assembly quality goes, regardless of how you see it, it is a job they do day after day, and I'm sure they have some sort of quota to meet.  They are not some individual modeler sitting in a workshop who is able to spend as much time as they want to very carefully and fastidiously add details to their model.

Precisely the reasons behind my above comment about having the proper process.

Ed

[peteski]

We can disagree on  his point.  Parts such as say grabirons should be more consistent and accurate if produced by a machine, likewise for drilled holes and such.  Hand applications have to be done repeatably and consistently, and if not then the process is broken.
I haven't (yet) seen the STs, so I'm not in a position to compare.  That said,  I'm always impressed with Kato's tooling and printing, which is about as good as it gets.  Offhand, I'd say only MT is on par. 

A agree that machine-made grab irons will be generally more consistent than ones produced by hand. However there are machine-made grab irons available to modelers as detail parts, and also if one is fastidious enough, a simple jig can be made by a modeler to produce the grabs that have unusual shapes, not commercially available.

Going back to factory installed grabs, all those nicely formed grab irons are still installed in hand-drilled holes in the shell (if you examine them carefully in the inside, those are not molded in). They are also glued in by hand (not machine).

We do seem to agree about the molding and decorating quality (which does not mean accuracy) of Kato and MTL models. Plus, no glue spots. 

Anyway, I guess we could discussing this until the locos return to the roundhouse.  I said all that I felt was needed to present my point.  I'm sure this Rivet Counter offering is a wonderful model. I do own the Big Blow set (with all of its good and not so good features), so I do have some point of reference. Remember?

[ednadolski]

However there are machine-made grab irons available to modelers as detail parts, and also if one is fastidious enough, a simple jig can be made by a modeler to produce the grabs that have unusual shapes, not commercially available.

The commercial ones are oversized and only fit in a few places.  I make 'em all by hand, but haven't figured out a way to make a good jig (yet).  The stainless steel wire gets tricky: hard to hang on to since it is so small, and it has to be overbent a bit in order to get a nice tight corner.

FWIW, I haven't had much luck w/grabiron jigs in other scales either, but there used to be some very nice machine-made wire EMD and GE pin lifters in HO scale from Railflyer.

Going back to factory installed grabs, all those nicely formed grab irons are still installed in hand-drilled holes in the shell (if you examine them carefully in the inside, those are not molded in). They are also glued in by hand (not machine).

Interesting, I didn't realize they were hand-drilled. That's a lot of holes!  Surely they must have a good jig?  Hard to imagine that's all done free-hand w/pin vices.

I wonder if they have dimpled shells, otherwise it would be slow work to have to locate so many holes.

We do seem to agree about the molding and decorating quality (which does not mean accuracy) of Kato and MTL models. Plus, no glue spots. 

A glueless design is good for mass production, and it is easier to dis-assemble without damage.

Anyway, I guess we could discussing this until the locos return to the roundhouse.

Something to do, until my new basement is done.

I do own the Big Blow set (with all of its good and not so good features), so I do have some point of reference. Remember?

Yes, those oversized grabs are just crying out (loudly!) for the wire snippers    

Ed

[martin station]

MRLX1020 ask;
 Are the the C4 variety with the weight management fulcrum on the center axles?

If yes, the angled cylinders you mentioned are correct..

  No these are the outside or end cylinders.
Ralph

[peteski]

. . .
Interesting, I didn't realize they were hand-drilled. That's a lot of holes!  Surely they must have a good jig?  Hard to imagine that's all done free-hand w/pin vices. I wonder if they have dimpled shells, otherwise it would be slow work to have to locate so many holes.
 . . .

I suspect that there are dimples molded on the shell. That would make it easier to spot the holes properly.  I also imagine that they use some sort of powered drill (maybe a flex-shaft unit?).