N Scale sound in locos sound terrible to me

[C855B]

Model sound will always lack the most singular characteristic defining the 1:1 experience - the acoustic environment. No lone wail in the distance, no 10-second reverb in the fog, no tell-tale Doppler of a fast train approaching (not just the WAAAAaaaaaa of passing in front of you), no five-second echo in the mountains. Also, no two locomotives sound alike. Sure, they may have had the same model horn, for instance, but a couple of months in running service is going to slightly de-tune the trumpets, all differently. Exhaust systems age differently, too - old GE's, which sounded like slushboxes when new, grow old with deeper and deeper rumbles as the manifolds and suppressors carbon-up.

Current technologies may be closer than in the past in capturing the subtleties of the sound emission from the point source, but they will never, ever get it right in context. In the end it's just expensive noise.

[robert3985]

First off, let me say that I love the sound in my engines.  Running an engine that isn't sound equipped gets me making the sounds myself..which I am told by my son, is pretty funny!  Sound is what got me to finally go with DCC, and that was BAD sound in the first run of Athearn Big Boys with the crappy MRC sound.  I agree with all of the pros, and disagree with all of the cons.  I don't see any cons that can't be adjusted, fixed or the volume turned down.

Thinking that N-scale sound doesn't sound like "real" trains because the lower frequencies are inaudible because of the physics attendant to the small speakers is like saying that you don't like model trains because they're not as big as the real ones.  N-scale sound is a model of how an engine would sound...and because of the size, it cannot be expected to sound totally real....just as N-scale models are never going to be the size of real locomotives.

Just as there are accurate models and not-so-accurate models, there are differences between the brands of sound decoders as has been stated previously in the comments about this thread.

The one thing that I like the very most about having sound in my engines is the chime/horn/whistle and the operational opportunity it is to make running trains a bit more realistic and involved.

So, put me squarely into the "YES" for N-scale sound...I have it and I'll never look back.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[Point353]

DCC is probably mandatory for sound too. Bells, horns, DB whine and so much else that's inaccessible for DC users.

Not necessarily.
https://www.modelrectifier.com/product-p/0001200.htm
http://www.broadway-limited.com/bli-1011dcmasteranalogcontrolmodule.aspx

[Kev1340]

Am I the only N scale modeler who thinks N scale loco sound is terrible, a waste of money and just plain annoying? I can see the validity in S and O scale steam locos, but that’s about it to my ears.

Totally agree with you! To my ears even the so called 'best' is just unrealistic and annoying. Of course I'm still content with DC too... does everything I need with out the expensive gimmicks.

Cheers,

Kev

[bdennis]

Well.. I like it.
The Factory Atlas S2.. Just fantastic.
The factory Alco C628 - love it..
Im a Alco fan so I think that says it all.
The Atlas factory GP39-2 - Great.. Im not big on EMD due to the turbo "noise" but adds to the effect in the room.

LokSound for me in Diesel Locos is the only way to go.

[unittrain]

The older EMDs I remember being able to hear from across town back in the early 80s and before, the low frequency rythmic rumble, then closer up you would hear the high frequency sounds, so from a distance the lower frequencies tend to be more dominant. I still live in the same area but only hear the horns unless at night then you can hear the locomotive somewhat and the roar of the cars. The newer locomotives of today are much quieter I live near the CSX former B&O double track mainline. But I agree sound can add more dimension to the experience, I'm thinking of adding some speakers under the layout to generate lower frequencies better since I model the 70s.

[jpwisc]

I love my sound. Thanks to ESU, I like the quality. Silent engines are depressing to me now.

The true test to me has become ops sessions. What do operators gravitate towards? When people come to layouts and have a choice between sound or quiet engines, I notice more operators taking the sound engines. The ability to run the bell in the yard and to blow grade crossings alone is worth the price of admission. On my layout people love the session starting with the engines being fired up and warming up a little before crawling out of the engine house. It adds to the experience.

I was recently at an ops session, where the predominant sound decoder was MRC. We all know the sound quality isn’t great, but you can still blow the horn. I caught a couple of the operators with non-sound engines making horn noises with their mouths as they hit grade crossings. They knew their engines were missing a key component. While the sound we can get in N is limited, I will happily take it over that boring silent option.

[jdcolombo]

I love my sound. Thanks to ESU, I like the quality. Silent engines are depressing to me now.

The true test to me has become ops sessions. What do operators gravitate towards? When people come to layouts and have a choice between sound or quiet engines, I notice more operators taking the sound engines. The ability to run the bell in the yard and to blow grade crossings alone is worth the price of admission. On my layout people love the session starting with the engines being fired up and warming up a little before crawling out of the engine house. It adds to the experience.

I was recently at an ops session, where the predominant sound decoder was MRC. We all know the sound quality isn’t great, but you can still blow the horn. I caught a couple of the operators with non-sound engines making horn noises with their mouths as they hit grade crossings. They knew their engines were missing a key component. While the sound we can get in N is limited, I will happily take it over that boring silent option.

Ditto on operators.  The folks that operate on my layout love the sound.  I attend op sessions on two large HO scale layouts, and the operators there also love sound - in fact, I helped the owner of one of those layouts adjust the sound levels on his engines, and during the last op session, the operators demanded that the sound be LOUDER.  First time I'd heard that complaint . . .

As others have noted, I simply can't abide silent units any more.  A steamer without chuffs might as well be dead.  And listening to that Alco "bucket-of-bolts, bucket-of-bolts, bucket-of-bolts" burble, or the sound of an EMD 567 Roots-blown (non-turbo - I'll readily admit that turbo whine of the later 567D's or more modern diesels does get annoying) throttling up and going into transition always just brings a smile to my face - and a smile on the faces of anyone who visits the layout.

And I'll leave this discussion with one more diesel sound that I love even in its N scale incarnation in a relatively small switcher - the Baldwin VO (ESU LokSound with 8x12mm speaker/enclosure in the cab):

John C.

[Dave V]

I was enthralled with sound when I was in N scale.  Once I started acquiring sound engines, I rarely ran my non-sound equipped ones.  I loved it even on my little 3 x 7 racetrack of a layout when the only sound "dynamics" came from the train running through the tunnel.

Then I switched to HOn3.

All of my engines are equipped with Soundtraxx Tsunamis and have the larger speakers possible with HO.  I actually don't run my HOn3 engines on full volume, but now that they're running around a much larger space and I've figured out the Digital Dynamic Effects CVs for Tsunami, sound is even more a necessary dimension for me.  Now I have extra stack talk under heavy load and rod clank when drifting.  And I admit, now that I live in a world of HO sound-equipped steam, when I hear N scale sound, it sounds much less magical to my ear than it once did.

But to each his own.  As @peteski said, sound seems to really bring steam locomotives to life.  I think if I were to return to N, I'd need that sound dimension.  I'm way too spoiled now.

FWIW--as mentioned above--as I develop an operating scheme for the RGS (or any future layout I build), I'm also incorporating sound into the tasks.  Proper whistle signals, bells, brake releases, cylinder blow-downs, etc., because that's what real train crews would have to do.

[EL3632]

I am also in the pro-sound group, though if you asked me a year ago, I would be right there with the anti-sounders. Prior to the engine that sold me on sound, it really seemed like a gimmick to me, especially considering my first sound loco was a PSM E8A that only picked up power from the rear truck, and the Athearn F45 was okay, and ran well enough, but didn't convince me I needed sound, or that it was all that great. It was the ESU decoder in the Scale Trains T4 GEVO that sold me, as it ran, really well, and had the sound on all the time while doing so (the layout was outside under a tent, and it still performed flawlessly, no light flicker or anything, for over 4 hours straight). I am very much a function > form person, seeing that the ET44 ran well made me realize that sound decoders could be reliable, and make the loco run well. The horn and bell, from factory settings, were audible from far away, but you only heard the engine sound when it was close to you. When I get more sound, it will be ESU. I like ESU decoders the best out of the sound decoder manufacturers because they are high quality, with good sound and they make the engine run really well.
The other thing that sold me was running sound in ops sessions. It really does add another level to the overall experience. Like others have said, being able to blow the horn for crossings and ring the bell in yard limits is really cool (to me).
Sound is a natural next step for me, as I, like robert3985, make the sounds myself when there is no sound decoder, but not just the horn and bell, the diesel prime mover & steam chuff, too... Even if I do not voice it, the sounds play in my head anyway, so I can't get away from it (and cannot/do not know how to stop it, except with more sound decoders  ).
Despite liking sound, I would like to see non sound/silent options (DC or DCC) in locos, so those of us who don't want sound don't have to have it. I have several UK and Japanese prototypes I will not be installing sound in, and that is fine; I don't need sound in every single thing I own. I am in no real rush to convert everything, either; I can make my non-sound locos speedmatch to my sound ones, so they can MU.
In short, I like sound, and want to convert a majority of my fleet to it, but not everything.

[wm3798]

@jdcolombo , the sound is indeed impressive, but the cab is clearly not seated properly on the shell, perhaps an oversight in reassembly, but more likely because there's 10 lbs. of Schlitz in a 5 lb. bag.
I've installed numerous decoders in cramped N scale spaces over the years, and there's just always something that has to be compromised.  In the case of your video, it's the appearance of the model.
Fix the appearance, you either have to trim back on the frame (weight and tractive effort) or jam it on tighter possibly fouling the mechanism.

I'm not saying I'll never ever have a sound unit, and I agree it adds an interesting dimension, especially when you're switching, but taking into consideration the need for infallible trackwork for connectivity, the extra work to get everything to fit, the extra power demands they place on your system, etc. etc. etc. before you even mention doubling the cost or more of each locomotive... well, let's just say it will be a while before I see the value in that.

Lee

[wazzou]

And I'll leave this discussion with one more diesel sound that I love even in its N scale incarnation in a relatively small switcher - the Baldwin VO (ESU LokSound with 8x12mm speaker/enclosure in the cab):

John C.

@jdcolombo
John, I may have asked this when originally viewing this video some time ago, but it looks like the cab and frame at the rear dips down.  Is that an artifact of the speaker install or just an accident?

I see Lee just beat me to it. 

[peteski]

@jdcolombo , the sound is indeed impressive, but the cab is clearly not seated properly on the shell, perhaps an oversight in reassembly, but more likely because there's 10 lbs. of Schlitz in a 5 lb. bag.
I've installed numerous decoders in cramped N scale spaces over the years, and there's just always something that has to be compromised.  In the case of your video, it's the appearance of the model.
Fix the appearance, you either have to trim back on the frame (weight and tractive effort) or jam it on tighter possibly fouling the mechanism.

Wow Lee, are things that bad?! How about all those factory-installed sound locos?  Everything in those fits properly.  I also suspect that John's loco is just not reassembled properly.  But if one wants to come up with some excuse against N scale sound, then anything will work. 

[wm3798]

It's like this, Pete.  I don't have a current functioning layout, I have a substantial collection of otherwise fully functional equipment, I don't have the budget to spend upwards of $200 on something that will see the light of day maybe once or twice a year when I wander into someone else's basement for an hour or two.  And according to the reports of others in this thread, it's not worth it to run a less expensive decoder/speaker set up if sound is your bag.

For me, in my current situation anyway, I can't justify the expense of time, effort, or money to add something that makes it harder to hear the music I like to play while I'm tinkering in the train room...that I don't have!

I don't begrudge others from wanting to take on sound, and if I chunked everything I had and switched to a larger scale, I could see it becoming a thing.  But I still don't see myself diving in with both feet in N scale at this point.
Lee

[jdcolombo]

@jdcolombo , the sound is indeed impressive, but the cab is clearly not seated properly on the shell, perhaps an oversight in reassembly, but more likely because there's 10 lbs. of Schlitz in a 5 lb. bag.
I've installed numerous decoders in cramped N scale spaces over the years, and there's just always something that has to be compromised.  In the case of your video, it's the appearance of the model.
Fix the appearance, you either have to trim back on the frame (weight and tractive effort) or jam it on tighter possibly fouling the mechanism.

I'm not saying I'll never ever have a sound unit, and I agree it adds an interesting dimension, especially when you're switching, but taking into consideration the need for infallible trackwork for connectivity, the extra work to get everything to fit, the extra power demands they place on your system, etc. etc. etc. before you even mention doubling the cost or more of each locomotive... well, let's just say it will be a while before I see the value in that.

Lee

@wm3798
@wazzou

Lee:

The VO's cab sag was an assembly error on my part - since fixed.  It wasn't the result of installing either the speaker or the decoder.  I just pushed down on the cab too much when putting it back together and actually didn't realize I had done so until after I had taken the video (when I saw it, too).  I haven't taken a new video because it still works for demonstrating the sound, which is what most people are interested in.

Actually, the VO required almost NO frame modification.  You can see how I did the decoder in the following thread:

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=31637.0

By the way, I have tested my diesels for before/after pulling power.  There is essentially zero difference.  During my op sessions, my yard masters use single sound-equipped RS3's to switch Bellevue Yard, and they routinely pull/push cuts of 15 cars (and all my freight cars are weighted to 1oz - even open hoppers, which I weight by stuffing tungsten putty in the bottom of the chutes) without issue.  There simply isn't that much weight loss in a well-engineered sound installation - although I WOULD worry about weight loss if someone is milling out the entire fuel tank area for a fuel tank installation, which is how IM and Atlas are doing it for their factory installations.  But in that case, there is room on the shelf at the rear of the decoder to put some old-fashioned sheet lead to gain weight back.  They don't do it because of environmental regulations, but I did it in my SD35, which will pull 20 of my freight cars on level track by itself.

I understand that sound is not for everyone.  It's expensive (roughly $100 or so for decoder/speaker/keep alive caps) and doing your own installation takes time, the right tools and considerable effort.  Plus you sometimes need specialized programming hardware (e.g., an ESU LokProgrammer).  But I fundamentally disagree that it universally sucks in N scale, or that you have to compromise the model's looks or operation to achieve good sound.  Neither of those things is true. 

John C.