Help with Kato/Atlas RS-1's and 3's

[joelm]

All:  I have quite a number of older Kato and Atlas (China and Japan Manufactured) RS-1's and RS-3's that I just cannot get to run smoothly or to consistently run smoothly, no matter how many times I have taken them apart, cleaned, lubed and put them back together. These have TCS GN decoders in them. And I have replaced the traction tire wheel sets with full contact wheel sets.

Can someone provide me with a step by step or overall repair protocol for these locomotives? Ie: What causes the problems, the things I should be looking at/for, the steps I should go through and specific procedures to repair the faulty mechanisms. 

The problems I perceive are:
1) Lurch when they start - the trucks appear to move before the frame follows, resulting in a visible 2 step movement.
2) Poor running - they will start off a session fine, after cleaning wheels and testing, but in the middle of the session (1.5 hours or so), they will begin to balk - run poorly, stall, stop/start. And need to be taken out of service.

I recently saw the video on the Railwire recently where someone  (Jim M?) installed a sound decoder in one of these and it ran smoothly and perfectly.  HOW DO YOU GET IT TO DO THAT? That's what I want to know. What's the secret sauce?

PS: I also have a couple of the old LL SW-8 loco's that you guys apparently have the secrets too. I cannot get these to run properly, even with wired contacts. But that's for another day.

Thanks.

[jdcolombo]

I'm not sure what video you are talking about, but here's my Atlas Classic RS3 with an ESU LokSound decoder:

I suspect that the TCS decoder may be partly to blame for your problems.  I haven't had the best of luck with TCS decoders in N scale engines, although others have had great success.

Here is the link to the thread that describes how I put a sound decoder in my RS3's:

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=31953.0

If you are not interested in sound, I would do the following.  First take out the TCS GN decoder and replace it with an ESU LokPilot V.4.  It is tiny, and will fit nearly anywhere on the engine.  You will have to hard wire it and put in LEDs to light the front and rear lights; with the LokPilot, you could use regular 3mm LEDs (don't forget a 1K, 1/8w dropping resistor on each LED).  What I do is "flatten" the LEDs by sanding down opposite sides with a Dremel sanding drum.  Flattening by about 1/2mm on each side (flatten the sides parallel to the cathode/anode) helps the LED sit properly on the frame.  Use some thin double-sided tape to hold in place.

Now, clean the trucks, wheels and pickup contacts.  First, take off the trucks and clean everything with a wire brush in a Dremel on its slowest speed.  Clean the wheels; clean the cups that hold the wheels; clean the top of the fingers that contact the pickup strips on the frame, and clean the area of the pickup strips that contact the trucks.  Make sure the pickup strips fit tightly into the frame. 

Now test and see.  The engines should run smoothly with the standard ESU BEMF settings, but if you get some hesitation or jerkiness, use the Auto Tune feature of the LokSound.  Put the engine on the track where there is about 8' of straight track.  Using Ops Mode programming (programming on the main), set CV54 = 0.  Exit out of programming mode, and press F1.  The loco will take off like a banshee and then slow down.  Check operation and repeat the process if you aren't satisfied.

I have six Atlas Classic (China) RS3's.  All of them run extremely smoothly; all of them have ESU decoders (four have LokSounds, two have LokPilots).  Never had a problem with any of them - they do yard duty and local train duty during my 3-hour op sessions and run like a dream the entire time.

I also have three of the old Atlas/Kato RS3's.  These rely on contact between the frame and truck for electrical pickup (instead of using the phosphor-bronze pickup strips), and aren't quite as reliable on the electrical pickup front as the Atlas China models.  But they can work very well if you polish the area where the truck contacts the frame, both on the truck and the frame.  Again, I use a wire brush to do this.  And I use ESU LokPilot decoders in these, which for me provide the best performance.

John C.

[Steveruger45]

All:  I have quite a number of older Kato and Atlas (China and Japan Manufactured) RS-1's and RS-3's that I just cannot get to run smoothly or to consistently run smoothly, no matter how many times I have taken them apart, cleaned, lubed and put them back together. These have TCS GN decoders in them. And I have replaced the traction tire wheel sets with full contact wheel sets.

Can someone provide me with a step by step or overall repair protocol for these locomotives? Ie: What causes the problems, the things I should be looking at/for, the steps I should go through and specific procedures to repair the faulty mechanisms. 

The problems I perceive are:
1) Lurch when they start - the trucks appear to move before the frame follows, resulting in a visible 2 step movement.
2) Poor running - they will start off a session fine, after cleaning wheels and testing, but in the middle of the session (1.5 hours or so), they will begin to balk - run poorly, stall, stop/start. And need to be taken out of service.

I recently saw the video on the Railwire recently where someone  (Jim M?) installed a sound decoder in one of these and it ran smoothly and perfectly.  HOW DO YOU GET IT TO DO THAT? That's what I want to know. What's the secret sauce?

PS: I also have a couple of the old LL SW-8 loco's that you guys apparently have the secrets too. I cannot get these to run properly, even with wired contacts. But that's for another day.

Thanks.

I used to have similar lurching issues with the CN and CNGP decoders, when I had them.
In my case it was due to a poor contact on one half of the decoder to the frame.
Also you may have to play about with the back emf.

[peteski]

I also have three of the old Atlas/Kato RS3's.  These rely on contact between the frame and truck for electrical pickup (instead of using the phosphor-bronze pickup strips), and aren't quite as reliable on the electrical pickup front as the Atlas China models.  But they can work very well if you polish the area where the truck contacts the frame, both on the truck and the frame.  Again, I use a wire brush to do this.  And I use ESU LokPilot decoders in these, which for me provide the best performance.

John C.

Yes, the design of these models is a bit dated by today's standard.  I go one step further than John in polishing the contact areas of the frame and the trucks' metal frames.  I actually sand them down using a multi-grit fingernail emery board, then bring them to a mirror-like finish using polishing paste and a buffing wheel in a Dremel tool.  The residue from the polishing paste seems to inhibit oxidation too.





I use the polishing technique on the newer locos (like the Chinese versions).  I sand and polish the metal nubs on the trucks, and only polish the contact areas on the pickup strips (those are smooth enough not to need sanding).

As for the trucks starting to move before the chassis in the older Kato locos, there is nothing you can do about that - they are designed with the truck having fore and aft play in the chassis. Other than looking odd, it is not affecting the performance.  This action should only be apparent when the loco changes direction.

I also agree that ESU decoders work better than TCS (but I know that TCS decoder is really easy to install).  If you are no afraid to perform some frame modifications then I would recommend going with ESU. The price is comparable.

[joelm]

Thanks guys. JD, it was your video I was referencing. I'll try the cleaning techniques first - before spending the money on new decoders. If necessary, I'll do that too. Joel

[nkalanaga]

I've never used DCC, but ran these for several years on my DC bedroom shelf layout.  As long as they were kept clean they ran quite nicely.  They ran even better after I wired a pair together, giving 16 wheel pickup, which is easy to do.  Of course, if you run the singly, that's no help, but here's how I did it.

No need to modify anything, except for two holes in each pilot.  Just take a piece of flexible wire, strip the ends, feed it through the pilots, and jam the stripped ends between the chassis and body.

One can do it more neatly, but that will work for starters, and if you like the results, you can drill/tap/screw/solder to your heart's content.

[woodchip]

It might depend on what trucks they have. I have one of the A/K RS-3 that originally came with traction tires on it and it was an okay but not great runner. I changed it to the later style trucks with no traction tire trucks and it ran and still runs great. i used to have an RS-11 that was from the same era and it got NWSL wheels,ran great wish I still had it.

                    Cheers from Canada
                               Hugh

[mecgp7]

I make those old Atlas/Kato RS3s run like silk and they crawl. You need to completely breakdown the loco to do it. The issue is ensuring that power gets to the motor which is a good motor. Like others have said burnish/polish all areas of connectivity including the motor contact areas. With the trucks; first get rid of the brass wipers they do more harm than good. Replace traction tires with regular wheels. Clean wheels and axles. The very most important thing to do is to file the "U" shaped openings where the axles sit. I have a small round file and when you make one pass through the "U" the flash from the mold becomes apparent. Get rid of it and polish. I put some sort of anti-oxidant on all the conductive areas. Lubricate, reassemble and away you go.  One last bit of advice for these older units is that they need to be run in order for them too run well consistently.
Oh yeah, clean your track.

[nkalanaga]

If you're comfortable tinkering with locos, and reasonably good with tools, you can hardwire the trucks to the frame.  Drill a hole in one end of each metal bearing plate, and force a brass rod into it.  0.02 inch is fine, and it doesn't matter where the hole is, as long as it isn't on the bottom.  Somewhere where it won't interfere with the truck's movements.

Do the same with the chassis.  There there's lots of room.

Solder a piece of very flexible wire between the two rods.  There are plenty of wires and hoses between prototype locos and their trucks, so you might be able to make it look like a detail.

Using DCC, you might want to grind slots in the sides of the chassis and run the wires directly to the decoder.  That would eliminate all of the loose contact points except where the axles meet the truck frame.

I haven't tried this on the RS-3, but did it on a Minitrix F, and it worked fine.

[rrjim1]

I have several Atlas/Kato RS3s and RS11s with TCS decoders and they run absolutely great. I have IMO upgraded these units, I replaced the traction tire wheel set, installed U25 gearing, and replaced the old Kato high speed motor with a Atlas scale speed motor.  They (3 units) will creep pulling a heavy 30-50 car coal train threw several insufrog turnouts without any problems.     

[Joetrain59]

nkalanaga,
  Sounds like a good idea. Any pix to illustrate?
 Joe D

[nkalanaga]

Sorry - this was a LONG time ago, like the late 70s and early 80s.  I can't even take pictures now, as the loco itself was lost to burglars years ago!  Fortunately, they raided our old house, which was being used for storage, so all they got was the "junk".  I've found some of it at train shows, on the second hand train tables, where the dealers have acquired it from the burglars.  Most of it doesn't sell, so it just keeps showing up...  It's junk! 

[peteski]

Sorry - this was a LONG time ago, like the late 70s and early 80s.  I can't even take pictures now, as the loco itself was lost to burglars years ago!  Fortunately, they raided our old house, which was being used for storage, so all they got was the "junk".  I've found some of it at train shows, on the second hand train tables, where the dealers have acquired it from the burglars.  Most of it doesn't sell, so it just keeps showing up...  It's junk!

Junk? I thought you said that these locos ran and pulled well? 

Just so things are perfectly clear - I'm just pulling your leg.

[Joetrain59]

I think a skew wound motor would help. (?) Could one use a flywheeled  RS3 motor, remove them, and fit into older frame?
 Thanks,
 Joe D

[mecgp7]

The motor in these Kato made Atlas locos is a very good motor. Running at slow speeds is not an issue unless MUing with different locos.  If you are going to repower them, I would just replace them completely. The effort and expense really isn't worth it especially since the old shell fits on the new Atlas made chassis.