Why Kato needs to do the Empire Builder and North Coast Limited...

[NorsemanJack]

An F7 can stand in if necessary, but an FP7 is a little longer. It is not noticeable by itself but if you park it next to an Intermountain FP7, it is noticeable.

I think you misunderstood Marty.  I was asking about the F7 because it is much more prototypical for the NCL than an FP7.  The FP7's (of which they only had two) rarely if ever showed up on the NCL.  I don't believe I've ever seen a photo of such.  IIRC, they were used more on secondary trains where the extra hot water capacity was needed because there was only one locomotive supplying it.

[NorsemanJack]

And this is the problem with manufacturers releasing foob releases (ala Lowell Smith) and people gobbling them up just 'to support the manufacturer." It's like selling your soul. You only perpetuate the notion that manufacturers can treat N scalers as second class, 'oh, they'll take what we give them' citizens. I get that consumer ethos was more acceptable during the early years of N scale, but if we want to be a mature consumer base we need to start putting our foot down. Especially those of us who want prototypical models, like the EB and NCL or any other name train.


I'm not saying we have to scream every time the lift rings are wrong, the number of fan blades are off, or the horn is in the wrong place, but when a manufacturer tries to pass a paint scheme on a model the RR never had or, on the wrong passenger cars, we should get dickish abut it and not buy, at this point.

^^^^+1.  I'm fine with this for less common road names that will likely never see the light of day as a full prototypical release from Kato.  That said, I wish people would just quit buying the foobed NCL and EB car releases.  Fortunately, I doubt Kato will ever NOT release a train just because some secondary supplier has issued a few cars in the same scheme.  Kato has reached the point where they can literally "create" a market for their releases, because they are just so darned accurate, high quality and affordable.  If you don't believe me, just check my (empty) wallet!   

[NorsemanJack]

Just the opposite problem seems to be keeping Kato from re-releasing their F-units in NYC, PRR, etc.

Did the NYC and PRR prototype F7's have dynamic brakes?  Kato did recently release a single headlight, dynamic brake equipped F7 with the freight pilot (ATSF cigar band, GN, NP).  If the NYC and PRR units had dynamic brakes, then maybe the shell is available.  Not sure if PRR also might have a problem with the number boards and those unique antennae that appeared on some units.

[peteski]

And this is the problem with manufacturers releasing foob releases (ala Lowell Smith) and people gobbling them up just 'to support the manufacturer." It's like selling your soul. You only perpetuate the notion that manufacturers can treat N scalers as second class, 'oh, they'll take what we give them' citizens. I get that consumer ethos was more acceptable during the early years of N scale, but if we want to be a mature consumer base we need to start putting our foot down. Especially those of us who want prototypical models, like the EB and NCL or any other name train.

The problem here is that even if *ALL* the "purists" were to boycott the product, that would account for probably 0.001% of the total sales of the foobies.  There is a tiny percentage of modelers who want 95% accurate models.  Most modelers are quite happy if the item is just painted for their favorite RR.  Even the "support the manufacturer" crowd is rather small. Just being realistic here. 

That is not to say that I'm disagreeing with you. I'll be the first one to complain about grossly exaggerated board gaps on a wooden reefer. But it just won't happen.

[CBQ Fan]

I think there is a very distinct difference between the Con-Cor approach and what Lowell Smith is doing.

[NorsemanJack]

I think there is a very distinct difference between the Con-Cor approach and what Lowell Smith is doing.

Are you referring to the Con-Cor approach from many years ago, when they sold "complete" passenger trains, but overlooked prototypical accuracy on actual cars?

[atsf3751]

I believe Lowell will try to be as accurate as he can. Some might say they will be very expensive but I will point out Rapido which sell very nice passenger cars for $50+. A 20 car train would cost you more than $1000. The era they are aiming for a 20 car passenger train is not that uncommon. Even a 10 car train, plus engines, will not be cheap. A 13 car Super Chief with an ABBA set of F's will set you back a lot.

[CBQ Fan]

Are you referring to the Con-Cor approach from many years ago, when they sold "complete" passenger trains, but overlooked prototypical accuracy on actual cars?

Yes, exactly!

[NorsemanJack]

Yes, exactly!

That's what I thought and I agree with your previous comments 100%.  I remember when Concor came out with that foobed NCL way back in the day. Man, did I want one of those!  I think they still have a strong market.  The current parallel may be Kato's smooth side sets.  They don't market them as name trains, and if it helps them cover their overhead and maintain a healthy R&D budget, then I'm all for it; primarily because they also do the accurate name trains that we cherish. 

[chessie system fan]

Speaking of which, the eBay listing that started this thread is no longer available so we can't see what you guys were talking about.

FYI, it's still there.  Click on "listing" where it says "The listing you’re looking for is no longer available." and it will take you to it.  It took me a while to figure that out, but it's just an annoying advertising hoop you have to go through. 

[nkalanaga]

I'll agree that the CC NCL was a big disappointment, but some of the cars were close, and until MicroScale came out with NP passenger decals it was the only option.

Even today, if one wants an NP or GN dome-coach, CC is the only option that doesn't require considerable, and relatively expensive, kitbashing.

[NorsemanJack]

I'll agree that the CC NCL was a big disappointment, but some of the cars were close, and until MicroScale came out with NP passenger decals it was the only option.

Even today, if one wants an NP or GN dome-coach, CC is the only option that doesn't require considerable, and relatively expensive, kitbashing.

I don't think I've ever heard of anybody considering that old ConCor NCL a "big disappointment."  It was a really cool set back in the day.  The big disappointment (so far) is that Kato hasn't announced a full, prototypical one.  What a few of us have been lamenting is that other manufacturers have been piecemeal releasing Loewy scheme NP cars, with some allegedly reporting that their intention is to "do" an entire NCL (I haven't seen any substantiated reports, and personally doubt that any manufacturer would "announce" plans to do an entire NCL without any firm production plans for every last prototypical car).  Just because somebody paints a dozen cars in pretty two tone green doesn't make it an NCL.

[Ike the BN Freak]

I believe Lowell will try to be as accurate as he can. Some might say they will be very expensive but I will point out Rapido which sell very nice passenger cars for $50+. A 20 car train would cost you more than $1000. The era they are aiming for a 20 car passenger train is not that uncommon. Even a 10 car train, plus engines, will not be cheap. A 13 car Super Chief with an ABBA set of F's will set you back a lot.

Speaking to Lowell, he plans on selling the cars in the $30-40 price range

[nkalanaga]

NorsemanJack:  My expectations were probably a little high, as I grew up with the NP, and the CC paint and lettering weren't as accurate as the GN Empire Builder cars I already had.  However, the big disappointment for me was the F3s that powered it.  They not only didn't look right, they ran very poorly.  I ended up buying my first Scalecoat paint just to paint a set of Minitrix Fs to take their place...

Ike:  At that price I could afford a train.  By 1970 the NCL was usually 10 to 12 cars, not 20, which cuts the final price a lot.

The closest I ever saw to a 20 car passenger train, aside from fan trips and other excursions, was the Amtrak Empire Builder in the summer of 1974.  There were so many passengers traveling between Seattle and Spokane, for Expo 74, that Amtrak added a second train on the ex-GN line through Wenatchee, to go with the North Coast Hiawatha.  I was working nights by then, and didn't get to the station often, but one night when I was there, the Empire Builder came through Pasco in two sections.  The first was the regular Seattle-Chicago train, 15 or 16 cars that night, which was a little more than usual for 71-73, but not uncommon that summer.  I noticed the green flags, and they were real flags, not just metal squares. I don't remember the class lights being lit, although it was late evening.  A few minutes later the second section pulled in, and the first backed out, to head up the old SP&S to Spokane.  The second section had another ten cars or so, all extra passengers for Spokane.   

[mplsjct]

I had one of those ConCor NP sets, the one thing that really bothered me with it was the two dummy units didn’t even sit at the same height as the powered unit, not to mention the powered unit had marginal performance.

Thankfully we have moved way past that, all the same ConCor deserved recognition for producing those sets.

They still do rather well in auction.