Lowering NSA PRR F22 gun flats.

[prr7161]

I wonder if these might do the trick:

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10071770

The Yamato's 18" barrels at 1/200 work out to about 14" N scale, which was a gun size used on a bunch of U.S. WWII-era battleships prior to the Iowas.

[chicken45]

I agree, but I think this load would be in @Lemosteam 's wheel house. But we need some body to do a proper gun barrel.

What's wrong with the NSA gun barrel? It's like 72 feet long or so. I think the prototype was along the lines of 68 feet. That's close enough for me, plus it's available separately apart from the cars.

EDIT: Actually it prob is a 68 foot gun. I measured end to end, including the end caps/blocking.

[prbharris]

Since you asked, I have a lot to say. Also Peter, you know I love ya. This is all constructive criticism I'm about to throw down.

Indeed John - that is why I asked. Comments are valued - and I will try to respond [even repatterning at times!]

pictures of the FM...on your website are not good pictures and do not show a clear side profile.

Good point - I will get some taken. The casting line issue is an issue [see below re rivets] as it is difficult - but not impossible - to cast in a vertical position, so that the casting lines [the problem with Alan's pattern for the F30 cars] for cars with rivets etc, are on the top and bottom of the car runnings along the sills, rather than around the sides.

If you send me one, I'd be happy to build one up and take pics for you.

As for the F22, here's what I'd do.
1. Make sure the ride height is correct!

I think that with the 2004 couplers you will be very close [about 1" in 1:1 scale out]

2. Do both F22 and F23. The difference is that the F23 had a metal deck instead of the wood.

I am not sure that the market will take patterns for both - but if I get a good picture of the riveted metal deck it might be possible to do this, as well as the wood deck that I was intending to provide [although there will only be one or two versions of these out of the 7 that were installed!]

3. Get decals from John Frantz (Mt Vernon Shops). He already did a run a few years ago so I'm sure he has the artwork. It included both F22 and F23.

John was really helpful with the FD2 and FW1 decals that are his - and included with the FD2 kits. If I proceed that would be a good option - although his minimum order is a little high.

4. I like the idea of separately applied stake pockets because I think no matter what, the car sides will need to be sanded because the castings are not smooth enough.

Thank you - this seems to have gone down well in the FM car.

5. Think about the trucks. I think the F22 and F23 had different trucks. .... I think we have MTL trucks already out that are close.

The MTL Arch bar trucks are close for the 1918 as built condition. Both F22 and F23 cars [according to Gatwood and Buchan] later had 2F-F2 100t trucks, although some had the 'Hart' ballast style trucks fitted!, as on the F30's. The 2F-F2 are not available in N - but due to their prominant 3 spring arrangement, the closest I think that is are the National C-1 trucks by Atlas - are these still available?

6. a load such as the Westinghouse 6,000KVa transformer load for Detroit Edison - out of their Sharon PA plant load]

I like that - we are investigating a new resin producer as I write - this may be one to try out as well as the nuclear flasks and unusual containers that he is producing.

Peter

Peter Harris
N Scale Kits
www.nscalekits.com

[towl1996]

What's wrong with the NSA gun barrel? It's like 72 feet long or so. I think the prototype was along the lines of 68 feet. That's close enough for me, plus it's available separately apart from the cars.

EDIT: Actually it prob is a 68 foot gun. I measured end to end, including the end caps/blocking.

Somehow I was under the impression that the dimensions were off. But since you have the gun and say it is close, I'm good with that. 

Is the barrel hollow? meaning is there any way to add weight in side the thing? Thanks

[towl1996]

I like that - we are investigating a new resin producer as I write - this may be one to try out as well as the nuclear flasks and unusual containers that he is producing.

That sounds interesting. Do you have a link to this individual, so we can check out what has been produced.

Thanks for looking into doing this car, sounds like it may be a go.   

[prbharris]

Do you have a link to this individual, so we can check out what has been produced.

Not yet - but I will announce the new products as soon as I get the results - if they are good!

Peter

[chicken45]

Somehow I was under the impression that the dimensions were off. But since you have the gun and say it is close, I'm good with that. 

Is the barrel hollow? meaning is there any way to add weight in side the thing? Thanks

Yes. It's hollow. It's also bowing a little. Not much.

Good point - I will get some taken. The casting line issue is an issue [see below re rivets] as it is difficult - but not impossible - to cast in a vertical position, so that the casting lines [the problem with Alan's pattern for the F30 cars] for cars with rivets etc, are on the top and bottom of the car runnings along the sills, rather than around the sides.
 
 The MTL Arch bar trucks are close for the 1918 as built condition. Both F22 and F23 cars [according to Gatwood and Buchan] later had 2F-F2 100t trucks, although some had the 'Hart' ballast style trucks fitted!, as on the F30's. The 2F-F2 are not available in N - but due to their prominant 3 spring arrangement, the closest I think that is are the National C-1 trucks by Atlas - are these still available?
 I like that - we are investigating a new resin producer as I write - this may be one to try out as well as the nuclear flasks and unusual containers that he is producing.

Peter

Peter Harris
N Scale Kits
www.nscalekits.com

I know the F30 was all welded so there were no rivets on the car sides.
The metal deck is basically flat metal with rivets along the spine and crossbars. It would actually be pretty easy to kitbash if we puttied in the rood slats or put a thin sheet of brass or something on it and added archer rivets. The hard part is the decals, which would already be on the decal sheet.
But there's a pic of a deck on Issue 26 of TKM, page 16. Let me know if you need it.

I think the Hart Ballast Car from Atlas used National C1 trucks. They never sold them separately.

[thenarch.com]

Kinda like the Dos Equis guy... I don't usually have much time to visit these forums but when I do it's usually when someone is trashing our product (especially when it includes a competitor... Peter ?). 

As far as I can tell, only one of you has actually purchased these kits.  Other than Joshua, these other comments appear to be based on hearsay from the other participants (or at the encouragement of our competitor... Peter ?). What's worst is that NO ONE has contacted us directly with any questions or concerns about these kits.

Throughout our 27 years as a N-Scale kit manufacturer, we have valued the input of our customers. Some of our best selling products have been derived from customer input. As such, we would like to solicit unbiased feedback from someone who has actually built these kits as designed. After all, it doesn't make sense to compare our product, which was designed to be easily built and run well, to 'yard candy' that has neither attribute. 

To this end, we are willing to send at NO CHARGE box sets of these kits (an $89.95 value) to three(3) modelers who are willing to share their kit building experience on this or a N-Scale centric Facebook page within the next 30 days. If you are interested, please contact us via email at thenarch.com@gmail.com or via our website THENARCH.COM by April 13, 2018. Be sure to include the forum or Facebook group on which you'll be sharing this experience so we can make sure that every group gets equal bidding. The recipients of these box sets will be announced on this forum and the N-Scale centric Facebook pages by April 20, 2018.

Thank you for your time,
Russ K.

[sd45elect2000]

I already bought the NSA kit. I am confident that I will be satisfied with the results of my build.

Randy

[peteski]

Kinda like the Dos Equis guy... I don't usually have much time to visit these forums but when I do it's usually when someone is trashing our product (especially when it includes a competitor... Peter ?). 

As far as I can tell, only one of you has actually purchased these kits.  Other than Joshua, these other comments appear to be based on hearsay from the other participants (or at the encouragement of our competitor... Peter ?). What's worst is that NO ONE has contacted us directly with any questions or concerns about these kits.

Russ, good to see you on the Railwire (even if the circumstances do not see very pleasant).
So the kit as built by Josh (in the photo above, which started this thread) is not assembled correctly?
I have no pony in this race, but to me the model on the left does appear to be siting somewhat high (even if not compared to the model on the left).   But then I'm no expert on PRR rolling stock (Josh is much more familiar with PRR than I am).

[chicken45]

Ok folks, let me try to clear a few things up.

I look at this forum as conversations with my closest modeling friends. I came here first, Russ, because, I naturally talk to my friends about this kind of stuff first. What I didn't want to do is just complain about things and offer nothing constructive in return. This forum, and the feedback from the folks here help me with gathering that knowledge. What is NOT at the forefront of my mind is that there's a lot of eyes out there on TRW. This thread has been viewed around 1300 times. In my mind, this is a discussion with Ed and Peteski and other people I know in person. I don't want you to think I ran here to bad mouth you, because I didn't. I came here to talk about this stuff with them.

As far as Peter goes, I've been super critical of his FD2 kit, so it's not just you, Russ
In fact, if you read the April 2017 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman, you'll see 8 or so pages of me fixing the dang thing.
Additionally, a few months ago, Peter actually did talk about doing a F22 back in August. Here's the link; https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=42367.msg536085#msg536085

Here's some other things I'd like to clear up.
1. My "yard candy" comment was directed at the MDD (Keith) car. Keith is an S scale modeler and he designed a F22/23 for himself in S scale on Shapeways. He basically scaled that model down with zero modifications to other scales. In N scale, he sold the cars at cost just to see if someone could make something out of them. And for the $10, I took a gamble. It has terrific ride height...but it also doesn't really run because the Z scale coupler is too low to mate with N scale couplers. My comparison was to show the difference in ride height and weigh the pros and cons of both. The NSA car is too high, the MDD car doesn't have an adequate coupler situation to make it run reliably, and that's ok...I paid $10 for two of them.  It was a fun science project.

2. The NSA car rides 2 scale feet high. That's a lot. If you think it's not fair for me to compare it to a static yard candy model, then let's compare it to the prototype. It's still rides 2 scale feet high.

3. There are correctable errors with this kit. Two quick and easy things can be done to immediately improve ride height.
           1. Use underslung couplers (MTL 2004 or something)
           2. Use a 33 inch wheel.
I think that's where I'll start and file bolsters as necessary. It might not be a big deal.
I was surprised this kit came with 36 inch wheels for three reasons: the prototype rode on 33 inch wheels, in doing the research on crown trucks I don't understand how it was not known to ride on 33 inch wheels, and 36 inch wheels makes the ride height worse.
My guess is that it had to do with a shortage of FVM wheels, maybe? I don't know.

4. I hadn't mentioned it before, but the trucks themselves to look a little big. I haven't measured them yet. They look TOO beefy. Maybe it looks bigger because it's unpainted.


Here's some positives, though.
1. The car sides look pretty good! I was worried about the striations but, these look pretty good from the close. I'll post pics shortly.
2. Aside from ride height, this is a quality product that will probably run well. I saw the videos of it being backed through a switch on Facebook. That's awesome!
3. This kit will make a lot of people happy. It's a great conversation piece that runs. That being said, I've often referred to TRW as "the 1%'ers of modelling." I'm going to try to make the ride height better.

It is my hopes that these changes work out. I think changing the model to be optimized for a MTL 2004 coupler is a good place to start.

 

[chicken45]

Here’s the pics!
[ Guests cannot view attachments ]
[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

[towl1996]

Ok folks, let me try to clear a few things up.

I look at this forum as conversations with my closest modeling friends. I came here first, Russ, because, I naturally talk to my friends about this kind of stuff first. What I didn't want to do is just complain about things and offer nothing constructive in return. This forum, and the feedback from the folks here help me with gathering that knowledge. What is NOT at the forefront of my mind is that there's a lot of eyes out there on TRW. This thread has been viewed around 1300 times. In my mind, this is a discussion with Ed and Peteski and other people I know in person. I don't want you to think I ran here to bad mouth you, because I didn't. I came here to talk about this stuff with them.

As far as Peter goes, I've been super critical of his FD2 kit, so it's not just you, Russ
In fact, if you read the April 2017 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman, you'll see 8 or so pages of me fixing the dang thing.
Additionally, a few months ago, Peter actually did talk about doing a F22 back in August. Here's the link; https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=42367.msg536085#msg536085

Here's some other things I'd like to clear up.
1. My "yard candy" comment was directed at the MDD (Keith) car. Keith is an S scale modeler and he designed a F22/23 for himself in S scale on Shapeways. He basically scaled that model down with zero modifications to other scales. In N scale, he sold the cars at cost just to see if someone could make something out of them. And for the $10, I took a gamble. It has terrific ride height...but it also doesn't really run because the Z scale coupler is too low to mate with N scale couplers. My comparison was to show the difference in ride height and weigh the pros and cons of both. The NSA car is too high, the MDD car doesn't have an adequate coupler situation to make it run reliably, and that's ok...I paid $10 for two of them.  It was a fun science project.

2. The NSA car rides 2 scale feet high. That's a lot. If you think it's not fair for me to compare it to a static yard candy model, then let's compare it to the prototype. It's still rides 2 scale feet high.

3. There are correctable errors with this kit. Two quick and easy things can be done to immediately improve ride height.
           1. Use underslung couplers (MTL 2004 or something)
           2. Use a 33 inch wheel.
I think that's where I'll start and file bolsters as necessary. It might not be a big deal.
I was surprised this kit came with 36 inch wheels for three reasons: the prototype rode on 33 inch wheels, in doing the research on crown trucks I don't understand how it was not known to ride on 33 inch wheels, and 36 inch wheels makes the ride height worse.
My guess is that it had to do with a shortage of FVM wheels, maybe? I don't know.

4. I hadn't mentioned it before, but the trucks themselves to look a little big. I haven't measured them yet. They look TOO beefy. Maybe it looks bigger because it's unpainted.


Here's some positives, though.
1. The car sides look pretty good! I was worried about the striations but, these look pretty good from the close. I'll post pics shortly.
2. Aside from ride height, this is a quality product that will probably run well. I saw the videos of it being backed through a switch on Facebook. That's awesome!
3. This kit will make a lot of people happy. It's a great conversation piece that runs. That being said, I've often referred to TRW as "the 1%'ers of modelling." I'm going to try to make the ride height better.

It is my hopes that these changes work out. I think changing the model to be optimized for a MTL 2004 coupler is a good place to start.

I agree 100% with everything you said.

Everyone who was involved with this thread understood the "yard candy" comment referred to the MDD cars.  No need for you to explain.

 

[thenarch.com]

Josh, Check your e-mail. Per your most recent photo, it looks like your F22 chassis has destinct print lines. Shapeways is notorious for arbitrarily changing our print orientation to suite their own needs. Usually we catch this before they ship. More than happy to replace them if they’re unacceptable. Russ K.

Pestesky, Thanks for welcome !  Always a bit unnerving to know that you’re lerking in the the shadows 😁😁😁. Yes, something seems to up with Josh’s car height. We might have included 36” wheels with his kit by mistake. If true, we’ll replace at no charge.  Russ K.

All, The pre-cut brass weights included with these car kits, bring their unloaded weight up to about a 1/2 ounce. Still light by NMRA standard but they do track very well through switches and curves (see our FB page for an operational video). Would avoid adding weight to the accurate length gun barrel as it will tend to make this load top heavy. That’s all for now. Thanks again, Russ K.

[chicken45]

Josh, Check your e-mail. Per your most recent photo, it looks like your F22 chassis has destinct print lines. Shapeways is notorious for arbitrarily changing our print orientation to suite their own needs. Usually we catch this before they ship. More than happy to replace them if they’re unacceptable. Russ K.

Pestesky, Thanks for welcome !  Always a bit unnerving to know that you’re lerking in the the shadows 😁😁😁. Yes, something seems to up with Josh’s car height. We might have included 36” wheels with his kit by mistake. If true, we’ll replace at no charge.  Russ K.

All, The pre-cut brass weights included with these car kits, bring their unloaded weight up to about a 1/2 ounce. Still light by NMRA standard but they do track very well through switches and curves (see our FB page for an operational video). Would avoid adding weight to the accurate length gun barrel as it will tend to make this load top heavy. That’s all for now. Thanks again, Russ K.

All right! These are definitely 36 inch wheels. I'll respond to your email.
Makes sense about not adding weight to the gun. I remember @bbussey telling me about his well flat car and how it's super light but has a low center of gravity so it keeps on track.
The F22 is a damn small car and most of us understand it's hard to cram weight in there. I think what's in there is good, though!