Lowering NSA PRR F22 gun flats.

[chicken45]

I do have the gun kit too.  Just got back in town so I’ll dig in a little more tomorrow.

[Chris333]

Any useful info here:
https://prototopics.blogspot.com/2018/04/pennsylvania-railroad-fm-flat-car.html

[Alwyn Cutmore]

Hi Chris,

That is a great article but it is for the FM Flat car and not the F22 Flat Car.
Thanks for the headsup.
Regards
Al

[thomasjmdavis]

One thing about the FM drawings that is pertinent is the rail to deck measurement of 3'10 3/8 inches- which is exactly the same as the rail to deck measurement of the F22.  Standard railroad of the world.
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=LinesWestDiagrams_113.gif&sel=flat&sz=lg&fr=GS

I would think that before worrying too much about redesigning couplers, step 1 would be to get the car body and trucks adjusted so as to get the deck height correct (just under 0.3 inches).

As a comparison, I checked a few random ATSF drawings, and their flats varied from 3'9 7/8" to a fraction over 4' 1"

Just sayin'....

[chicken45]

One thing about the FM drawings that is pertinent is the rail to deck measurement of 3'10 3/8 inches- which is exactly the same as the rail to deck measurement of the F22.  Standard railroad of the world.
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=LinesWestDiagrams_113.gif&sel=flat&sz=lg&fr=GS

I would think that before worrying too much about redesigning couplers, step 1 would be to get the car body and trucks adjusted so as to get the deck height correct (just under 0.3 inches).

As a comparison, I checked a few random ATSF drawings, and their flats varied from 3'9 7/8" to a fraction over 4' 1"

Just sayin'....

That’s a pretty good idea.  I’ll do that tonight.

[chicken45]

So. 
The NSA kit comes with what seems to be 36” wheels, which is wrong.  These rode on 33 inchers.  So that’s a plus that I can put in smaller wheels maybe.

Proto top of rail to top of deck is 3 foot 10.
NSA car is FIVE FEET.  The MDD car is in the high 3’s. 

Why would they put a 36 inch wheel with this kit?
I don’t understand this.  It took me 30 seconds to look this up to prove it after already knowing most freight stuff rolled on 33’s.

[prbharris]

It might have to be made of pewter the 2004 couplers do lower the mounting level to 0.226"

So the drawing showing the car with the deck at 3' 11" using 2004 couplers. The stake pockets are not included as I suggest that these are resin [as on our PRR FM car, kept in place by glue plus the wooden deck on top of the car. Any ideas before I send it for patterning?


Peter

Peter Harris
N Scale Kits
www.nscalekits.com

[prbharris]

So the drawing showing the car with the deck at 3' 11" using 2004 couplers. The stake pockets are not included as I suggest that these are resin [as on our PRR FM car, kept in place by glue plus the wooden deck on top of the car. Any ideas before I send it for patterning?


Peter

Peter Harris
N Scale Kits
www.nscalekits.com

[Chris333]

Make sure with the 2004 coupler box that low that there is room for the axles.

[chicken45]

So the drawing showing the car with the deck at 3' 11" using 2004 couplers. The stake pockets are not included as I suggest that these are resin [as on our PRR FM car, kept in place by glue plus the wooden deck on top of the car. Any ideas before I send it for patterning?


Peter

Peter Harris
N Scale Kits
www.nscalekits.com

Since you asked, I have a lot to say. Also Pete, you know I love ya. This is all constructive criticism I'm about to throw down.

I built up 7 F30 cars back when they were Alan Curtis kits. I hated how rough the car sides were and I hated filing the car sides flat and working around the stake pockets.
I also hated how the car was very hard to flatten out. No matter how much I tried, the car never really looked flat. I don't know if there is some warping or curling in the casting process, but I could never get them to where it wasn't distracting me.
These cars have perpetually been shelved because of the ride height.

I haven't seen any customer pictures of the FM. The ones on your website are not good pictures and do not show a clear side profile.  If you send me one, I'd be happy to build one up and take pics for you.

As for the F22, here's what I'd do.

1. Make sure the ride height is correct!
2. Do both F22 and F23. The difference is that the F23 had a metal deck instead of the wood.
3. Get decals from John Frantz (Mt Vernon Shops). He already did a run a few years ago so I'm sure he has the artwork. It included both F22 and F23. No further research on your part, no need to reinvent the wheel. Done!
4. I like the idea of separately applied stake pockets because I think no matter what, the car sides will need to be sanded because the castings are not smooth enough. If it were me, I would leave the rivets off and add a strip of Archer rivets. That being said, I know I sit on the "extreme" end of this fringe of modelers.
5. Think about the trucks. I think the F22 and F23 had different trucks. My flat car book is in storage, but I'm sure one of those PRR guys, Bruce, or Eldin, will help. I think we have MTL trucks already out that are close.
6. This load:

[skm]

....snip> 5. Think about the trucks. I think the F22 and F23 had different trucks. My flat car book is in storage, but I'm sure one of those PRR guys, Bruce, or Eldin, will help. I think we have MTL trucks already out that are close...<snip


Looked it up!

According to Rob's PRR Page the F22 & F23 had 2F-F1 class trucks, which are Crown trucks (with a 100 ton bearing journal, invisible in N scale, but with 3 visible springs) supplied under the Bowser H21a hoppers (the latest releases have a much better profile, but only 2 visible coil springs) or the MTL Archbar is a decent substitute (same 2 springs).

According to Elden and Al in the PRR Flat Car book the crown trucks were replaced by 1932 with 2F-F2 trucks, with the drooping sideframe (2D-F8 under the Bowser GLa, but with 3 visible springs) However, they go on to state that despite the documentation the trucks most seen in pics are visually similar to tthe 2E-F10 truck found under the F30a, which has a center leaf spring with coil spring on either side (not currently available, but the MTL Coil-Eliptic is halfway there, also similar under the BLI K7a Stock car)

I guess you could cobble trucks together by cutting out the middle spring on say the Atlas C1 (if they ever release it separately!) or the BLI 3 spring trucks from either their H2a or 70t ARA hoppers and inserting a leaf spring from a donor truck. (or you could just ignore the minute details)

Hope this helps? <back to lurking>

[haasmarc]

Isn't the Marklin conversion coupler underslug? No idea how one would mount it though.

I checked out an MTL Marklin Z coupler at the local pusher.  It is not offset.

@Shipsure:  Please consider making an offset Z coupler and make the lids snap on if it isn't too much trouble 
 

[chicken45]

....snip> 5. Think about the trucks. I think the F22 and F23 had different trucks. My flat car book is in storage, but I'm sure one of those PRR guys, Bruce, or Eldin, will help. I think we have MTL trucks already out that are close...<snip


Looked it up!

According to Rob's PRR Page the F22 & F23 had 2F-F1 class trucks, which are Crown trucks (with a 100 ton bearing journal, invisible in N scale, but with 3 visible springs) supplied under the Bowser H21a hoppers (the latest releases have a much better profile, but only 2 visible coil springs) or the MTL Archbar is a decent substitute (same 2 springs).

According to Elden and Al in the PRR Flat Car book the crown trucks were replaced by 1932 with 2F-F2 trucks, with the drooping sideframe (2D-F8 under the Bowser GLa, but with 3 visible springs) However, they go on to state that despite the documentation the trucks most seen in pics are visually similar to tthe 2E-F10 truck found under the F30a, which has a center leaf spring with coil spring on either side (not currently available, but the MTL Coil-Eliptic is halfway there, also similar under the BLI K7a Stock car)

I guess you could cobble trucks together by cutting out the middle spring on say the Atlas C1 (if they ever release it separately!) or the BLI 3 spring trucks from either their H2a or 70t ARA hoppers and inserting a leaf spring from a donor truck. (or you could just ignore the minute details)

Hope this helps? <back to lurking>

Yes! Thanks for looking that up. I used MTL archbars on my F23 (and couldn’t remember if F22’s had a different truck) because it’s widely available.  It’s prob a good choice to design a kit around the MTL unless you’re going to 3D print them.
I’m not gonna try to track down a bunch of hart ballast cars for this. 

[chicken45]

I should also add that Keith’s (MDD) car was $10 for a 2 pack to use at your own risk.

For me, it was worth it. 

[towl1996]

6. This load:

I agree, but I think this load would be in @Lemosteam 's wheel house. But we need some body to do a proper gun barrel.