Why I don't care for separate factory-applied grabs

[nuno81291]

I would let thickness slide more than the spacing off the shell. Maybe HO has spoiled me but sometimes less is more. And as far as oversized couplers versus grabs I would take a boxing glove that works over a TSC that makes ops a nightmare. Then again I went to HO for my switching enjoyment. I’m sure their HO equivalent looks a little more correct than the posted photo. But I think the bigger problem in that photo are the handrails...Wtf is up with those?

Here is one reason I went to HO:
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Much better.

That said, I don’t think what they have done to the N scale model is the worst.. if it is really bad for you don’t buy it or roll your own grabs. They do look more distracting than adding to the model IMO. Ymmv

[ljudice]

Reserving judgement until I see them in person....

[basementcalling]

Times like this I really miss the down vote button. Then Peteski could get irritated about his status points, which is far more irritating to him than "off standing" instead of "out standing" grab irons. 

I don't diagree that the look is bothersome. Better less detail done well than an extra level poorly executed. I learned that lesson when adding such details to my own locomotives 20 years ago, which is why I seldom do so anymore.

The blue on the handrails is a killer for the whole locomotive. Has anyone tried painting the handrails yet?

Luckily for us, N scale has evolved so the market now offers a level of detail for those who are not put off by the factory applied details to purchase this locomotive, or you can go with molded in traditional representation on the Kato offering.

[ednadolski]

I am sitting here looking at my engineers scale, and those grabs look about 0.15" off the shell to me.

Is that an actual measurement?   That number is larger than the actual width of the grabiron (0.1125" for a scale 18").

Ed

[Mark W]

Here are some actual measurements:

Make	Model	Wire Width	Grab Depth	Scale Width	Scale Depth
FVM	ES44 (Self Applied)	.008"	.015"	1.3"	2.4"
IMRW	SD40-2	.010"	.034"	1.6"	5.4"
Scale Trains	Turbine	.009"	.025"	1.4"	4"

[peteski]

First of all, what I wrote was not a rant but merely an observation. I simply saw that photo and what I saw struck me as something that perfectly showed the problem I have with that type of detail. So I commented about it.

I can and will provide specific measurements and photographic evidence.  But regardless of that, even without measurements, that type of detail just doesn't look good or realistically modeled to me (strictly to my eyes/brain).  Again, this is my personal observations (but the fact that the handrail and metal grabs details in N scale trains are universally exaggerated due to manufacturing limitations). @ednadolski himself proves that in the photos of his own N scale locos where he replaced the factory handrails with fine wire handrails. I have to find those photos and add them to this thread.  That single change he made makes the N scale model look 1000% better, and also make it look like a much large scale model (which is a compliment since larger models more closely replicate the prototype's look).

I'm absolutely not against free-standing metal grabs and fine handrails on N scale models. But that is not what those ready-to-run models have. So to choose the best out of the bad options we have, I simply prefer molded-on grabs on mass-produced models.

[ednadolski]

Here is a quick pic of an actual measurement:  (full camera res so you can zoom in as needed)




The caliper is set to 0.150"  which is 24 scale inches, or two scale feet.   As you can see on these models that is basically the entire width of the pilot walkway, from the cab face to the inside edge of the handrail.  I don't have an ST to measure directly but as these are very similar GE units I am quite certain there is no difference worth mentioning.

Clearly the grabs in the original pic are not standing out by two scale feet, since that would nearly touch the pilot handrails.   They are not even one scale foot since that would be half the distance to the handrails.  So to dis the model with a claim like "they seem to stick out about a scale foot or two"  is clearly an unwarranted exaggeration.

The point of all this?   Not much other than that we should all take care to make sure that our critiques are fair and accurate.   Misinformation and hyperbole have a way of spreading quickly and sticking around for a long time.


Ed

[nuno81291]

That BNSF I assume is your work Ed? Looks leagues better than the csx unit in the OP. Handrails as well... nicely done.

[Chris333]

This is just a factory thing. I mean if they can hand install the grabs in the first place I'm sure they can space them from the body easy with a simple jig. Just a matter of making the factory do it.

[JanesCustomTrain]

The caliper is set to 0.150"  which is 24 scale inches, or two scale feet.   As you can see on these models that is basically the entire width of the pilot walkway, from the cab face to the inside edge of the handrail.

And why would you want the grab irons stick out that far ? That wouldn't be very prototypical wouldn't it ? Did I miss something...   

The point of all this?   Not much other than that we should all take care to make sure that our critiques are fair and accurate.   Misinformation and hyperbole have a way of spreading quickly and sticking around for a long time.

I don't like IM models   

Jane

[mmagliaro]

Oddly enough, I read Peteski's post and completely misinterpreted it at first because I was looking at the handrails, and how the handrail stanchions don't look pressed all the way into the body.  So when he said the "grabs" were sticking up too far, I didn't read "grabs" and was still looking at the handrails!  So I do think the handrails are much worse than  the grabs on this model.

While I agree with Peteski that I don't like the look of the bigger parts, as long as I can pull the existing parts off without too much fuss, that gives me the freedom to put finer-scale parts in place and not have to fight with locating the holes properly.   If it requires me to start filling holes and repainting, then yes, it means more work for me.   But there is clearly a demand among the customers for having all these parts pre-installed, even if oversized.  Remember how many Kato Mikados are still floating around with no detail parts on them because customers found it too hard to put them in.

It is possible to have finer-scale commercial grabs.  The BLI E7 has pretty darn thin and delicate grabs on it.

[ednadolski]

The caliper is set to 0.150"  which is 24 scale inches, or two scale feet.   As you can see on these models that is basically the entire width of the pilot walkway, from the cab face to the inside edge of the handrail.

And why would you want the grab irons stick out that far ? That wouldn't be very prototypical wouldn't it ? Did I miss something...   

It would seem so.  No one is asking for grabirons that stick out too far.   The issue is @peteski 's original complaint about the grabirons: "they seem to stick out about a scale foot or two".   But two scale feet is the whole width of the walkway, and his original picture plainly shows the grabirons don't stick out nearly even half that much.   So it is not at all a fair or accurate complaint, and it should in no way be taken as a *reasonable* issue with the idea of separately applied grabirons on N scale diesels (as indicated by his choice of words for this thread's topic line).

If @peteski or anyone doesn't like separately applied grabirons, then of course they are entitled to their opinion and no one is questioning that.   But it doesn't help anyone to try to justify it by making faulty/exaggerated claims.

(Funny, no one has mentioned that broken coupler in the original pic) 


Ed

[JanesCustomTrain]

It would seem so.  No one is asking for grabirons that stick out too far...

Gotcha ! I know, I know, I was just putting some salt into the wound. My apology if I hit the nerve even harder.

I totally understand what you mean and 'I am on your side' in this, no worries 

Jane 

(PS: I wasn't expecting the model will be delivered with a broken coupler)   

[sundowner]

(Funny, no one has mentioned that broken coupler in the original pic) 

It’s prototypical for CSX😇

[ednadolski]

That BNSF I assume is your work Ed? Looks leagues better than the csx unit in the OP. Handrails as well... nicely done.

Thanks, I had put that in there just as a reference point for scale sized parts, but it really is a terrible pic for that.  (I used to have a thread with better pics of that model, but Photobucket (insert sounds of thunder & wild horses) ate them.)

Ed