DIY Laser Decals - Comparing Decal Papers

[orionfield]

I don't know if any of you have heard of Ghost white Toner? https://www.ghost-white-toner.com/?lang=en  Its a german company that developed white toner for various Laser printers, its pretty much a game changer for those of us who make their own decals. I'm planning on buying an HP laser printer and some of their toner to make custom decals for Out of the Box. I've seen some people test it out and the white looks amazing on a model.

[C855B]

Very nice! Thank you! No, I had not heard of these folks. The white toner is pricey... OTOH, it's about 100X cheaper than the printer we were talking about. I guess I should plan on spending next month's allowance on a cartridge and try it out! It would be amazing if it works.

[peteski]

I don't know if any of you have heard of Ghost white Toner? https://www.ghost-white-toner.com/?lang=en  Its a german company that developed white toner for various Laser printers, its pretty much a game changer for those of us who make their own decals. I'm planning on buying an HP laser printer and some of their toner to make custom decals for Out of the Box. I've seen some people test it out and the white looks amazing on a model.

That is not quite the solution needed to make white-backed color decals in a single printout.

The super-fancy way the website works is also annoying.

There is also http://www.decalprofx.com/

[John]

. . . or farm out the printing of your low-volume decal artwork to a custom decal printing outfit which uses Alps printer. 

and what does this custom decal printing outfit charge  .. 

[peteski]

and what does this custom decal printing outfit charge  .. 

If you can provide a print-ready (preferably vector-based) artwork, then the printing itself should not cost too much.

I can occasionally step in and work with some Railwire friend to print their decals, but this is not something I can do often. But if you look at the list of Custom Decal Companies on https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/models/decals.htm there are several listed in USA. I would contact them for a quote.

[C855B]

That is not quite the solution needed to make white-backed color decals in a single printout.

Yes, I see. Their method is to replace the black toner with white, print only the white (sent to the printer as black) on the first pass, swap the white for black, and then print a second pass. In fact, they say print in B&W on the white pass so the colors don't add to the mix and muddy-up the white. I just tested my printer and it will not hold registration well enough between passes, so this system will not work in my case.

It would probably be fine for white-only decals, but definitely not for white under color.

There is also http://www.decalprofx.com/

I could barely understand their process, it was so obfuscated by meaningless marketing BS. What I can tell, however, it is a redux of the laser printer "foil sheet" system marketed to printers in the '80s and '90s, the only difference is they're telling you to use a separate laminator, which is basically what a fuser is - a heat + pressure roller. The system sucked 30 years ago and I strongly suspect it still sucks.

The only solution is going to be a plus-white, five-station printer with a WYMCK-ordered process. I'll put up a gofundme page in the morning for you guys to underwrite my Oki C941. 

. . . or farm out the printing ...

Thanks... but... my process tends to be iterative, so decal production needs to be on-site. I'm probably on the 8th version of the artwork for the C855 project, and three of those were to decal paper, tried on the model, and sent back for revision. After tweaking techniques to get the best out of the printer, one of the problems I'm fighting right now is the model itself has proportion issues (probably invisible to nearly everybody else!) in areas directly affecting lettering size and placement. I was accurate with the lettering per proto photos, but the model... well... not so much.

Given the pending demise of Rail Graphics I have it in the back of my mind to drop coin on the Oki and offer a decal output service if it met my quality expectations. Not like I haven't been there before. OTOH, I have been there before and am kicking myself for even the thought of getting back into the service bureau biz... what a time sink!

[peteski]

Yes, I see. Their method is to replace the black toner with white, print only the white (sent to the printer as black) on the first pass, swap the white for black, and then print a second pass. In fact, they say print in B&W on the white pass so the colors don't add to the mix and muddy-up the white. I just tested my printer and it will not hold registration well enough between passes, so this system will not work in my case.

It would probably be fine for white-only decals, but definitely not for white under color.

I could barely understand their process, it was so obfuscated by meaningless marketing BS. What I can tell, however, it is a redux of the laser printer "foil sheet" system marketed to printers in the '80s and '90s, the only difference is they're telling you to use a separate laminator, which is basically what a fuser is - a heat + pressure roller. The system sucked 30 years ago and I strongly suspect it still sucks.

The only solution is going to be a plus-white, five-station printer with a WYMCK-ordered process. I'll put up a gofundme page in the morning for you guys to underwrite my Oki C941. 

Thanks... but... my process tends to be iterative, so decal production needs to be on-site. I'm probably on the 8th version of the artwork for the C855 project, and three of those were to decal paper, tried on the model, and sent back for revision. After tweaking techniques to get the best out of the printer, one of the problems I'm fighting right now is the model itself has proportion issues (probably invisible to nearly everybody else!) in areas directly affecting lettering size and placement. I was accurate with the lettering per proto photos, but the model... well... not so much.

Given the pending demise of Rail Graphics I have it in the back of my mind to drop coin on the Oki and offer a decal output service if it met my quality expectations. Not like I haven't been there before. OTOH, I have been there before and am kicking myself for even the thought of getting back into the service bureau biz... what a time sink!

As you said, the ghost write is really only good for white-only printing. I suppose the alternative would be to print the white undercoat separate from color only artwork and the apply the white undercoat decal first, then the color decal over the white. But that increases the decal film thickness on the model.

After using Alps printer for over 15 years, I'm not a fan of laser printed decals.  The edges of the toner are fuzzy which shows up especially on small lettering.  for full color printing the laser printers have have slightly better halftone frequency than Alps, but usually not by very much.

What type of printing method was used by Rail Graphics?

As for fitting decals on the model, I usually scan the model on a flatbed scanner then import it into Corel Draw, lock the scanned bitmap layer then design my vector-based decal directly over the scan. That woks really well for flat model surfaces. For curves I apply tape to the shell and hand-trace the graphics on the tape, Then I peel the tape and scan it, import it, then use that as a rough template for the artwork.  This way my artwork usually fits the first time around.

But if needed, why not do all the iterative test prints on a standard monochrome laser printer, fit them to the model until they are ready, then send the final artwork out to be printed?

Yeah, the PulsarProFX site is full of marketing BS.  But I figured I woudl mention it since it is an alternative to Alps printer.

[C855B]

> ...fuzzy...

You must have been looking at old tech. You have to see what I'm getting from a $250 HP desktop. They're sharper than Microscale and hold impossibly fine hairlines such as the pinstripe edge around UP lettering. The small "Dependable Transportation" is especially telling. PM your snail mail addy and I'll send a sheet. But mentioned before, these only work because they're going over yellow.

I don't know what Rail Graphics uses. Somebody else here might.

I'll reconsider your mock-up thought. This has not worked for me in the past due to X/Y calibration discrepancies between output devices (lots of bad experiences when I was in the biz). Anyway, it wouldn't have solved the problem I'm working on now since it really wasn't apparent until actually applying the lettering to the model and discovering it was off by 0.030" or so. I should probably snap a pic of the test shell to show how little wiggle room there is in this very specific instance.

[peteski]

> ...fuzzy...

You must have been looking at old tech. You have to see what I'm getting from a $250 HP desktop. They're sharper than Microscale and hold impossibly fine hairlines such as the pinstripe edge around UP lettering. The small "Dependable Transportation" is especially telling. PM your snail mail addy and I'll send a sheet. But mentioned before, these only work because they're going over yellow.

I don't know what Rail Graphics uses. Somebody else here might.

I'll reconsider your mock-up thought. This has not worked for me in the past due to X/Y calibration discrepancies between output devices (lots of bad experiences when I was in the biz). Anyway, it wouldn't have solved the problem I'm working on now since it really wasn't apparent until actually applying the lettering to the model and discovering it was off by 0.030" or so. I should probably snap a pic of the test shell to show how little wiggle room there is in this very specific instance.

No, actually from OKI 711WT. I don't know how old the printer is but it is currently being sold

Here is an example (macro photo) of OKI printout (bottom) and Alps (top).  The OKI letters are about 0.07" tall.


I don't have any problems with size discrepancies when I scan (not take photo) of the shell using my 20+ year old Epson scanner and about the same age Alps printer.  They both produce properly scaled results.

[C855B]

I agree, that's awful. The Oki 7-series may be currently sold, but it's not new tech. It's also 600x600 with poor anti-aliasing, which is not acceptable for anything and wasn't even acceptable for proof output 30 years ago when I was in the biz, operating 3600x3600 and 4800x4800 film output units. The HP I have is a hardware 600x600, but it's a modulated beam and is "up to" 30,000 ppi in the X direction. Makes a big difference. Let's just say it passes my stringent loupe test.

As to size discrepancies, bear in mind I was dealing with dimensional stability across the entire sheet. I became really tired of customers beating me up over 11" actually being 10.85" on the proof from their LaserWriter, and why didn't I match it with the film output? This was really important in my last gig working for a printer, a forms manufacturer, where top-to-bottom accuracy was crucial. Much less of an issue with small blocks of lettering, unless we wanted to print an unbroken sheet to cover the entire car (or whatever).

[Circus Decals]

I have the 941/942 and it prints just as well as an alps if not better. Offers a wider range of color and is just hands down better than the alps in the durability. It cannot print metallics yet however this is something they are working on. It can however print gradients that the alps could not.

[peteski]

I have the 941/942 and it prints just as well as an alps if not better. Offers a wider range of color and is just hands down better than the alps in the durability. It cannot print metallics yet however this is something they are working on. It can however print gradients that the alps could not.

That is the printer that has 5 separate print engines (so you can do CYMK+W), correct? What is the halftone frequency of the highest quality print mode?  I tried to look up these specs, but it seems that the manufacturers do not like to publish this info.

What is the cost of the printer and consumables?

[Circus Decals]

CMYK+W in one pass. Not sure about the half tone. Prices vary depending on where you purchase from but $20-25k seems ballpark unless you buy used. Toner cartridges yield 38,000 page according to the mfg. and run a few hundred each. Definitely not a printer that everyone can afford at the moment but the technology is there and will come down in price someday.

[peteski]

CMYK+W in one pass. Not sure about the half tone. Prices vary depending on where you purchase from but $20-25k seems ballpark unless you buy used. Toner cartridges yield 38,000 page according to the mfg. and run a few hundred each. Definitely not a printer that everyone can afford at the moment but the technology is there and will come down in price someday.

Exactly - for a hobbyist the Alps printer is irreplaceable (and as you said, it can print metallics and also you can print multiple passes of inks as many times as you want for all sorts of special effects).  And even for many small manufacturers, the cost of that printer is out of reach.

I would love to  see some sample printouts from that printer.

[Mark5]

hmmm