What years did MTL cars come with "pizza cutters"?

[C855B]

You guys may be right on the earliest cars, but I'm going to prove it to myself. I just found my stash of Kadee blue and black label cars with ribbed-back wheels, and will take them over to the layout tomorrow and see how they run on the track sections in question. The flanges are definitely deep, but they don't strike me as ridiculously deep as the "modern" pizza-cutters do.

How early? MSRP of $3.00! On the labels!

In the box with these super-early cars were other Kadee cars of similar vintage... where I have already swapped wheels to FVM. Collectors' heads everywhere must be exploding.

[Missaberoad]

You guys may be right on the earliest cars, but I'm going to prove it to myself. I just found my stash of Kadee blue and black label cars with ribbed-back wheels, and will take them over to the layout tomorrow and see how they run on the track sections in question. The flanges are definitely deep, but they don't strike me as ridiculously deep as the "modern" pizza-cutters do.

How early? MSRP of $3.00! On the labels!

In the box with these super-early cars were other Kadee cars of similar vintage... where I have already swapped wheels to FVM. Collectors' heads everywhere must be exploding.

Would it be possible to see Pics and measurements comparing these wheels? I'm curious about this, I've heard it before but have never seen one of these early mid? pro wheels...

[C855B]

I'll try to do that for you. Main challenge I have is figuring out the ages of some of the fleet on the in-between stuff, which is what prompted the original question. The early cars with Kadee labels are super-easy, the new releases purchased in the past few months, easy, the dozens (...hundreds?... ) picked-up randomly in the '80s, '90s and '00s? Not so much.

I'll also comb through the boxes and see if I still have any low-pros with the "optional" pizza-cutters still in the nest.

[Missaberoad]

I'll try to do that for you. Main challenge I have is figuring out the ages of some of the fleet on the in-between stuff, which is what prompted the original question. The early cars with Kadee labels are super-easy, the new releases purchased in the past few months, easy, the dozens (...hundreds?... ) picked-up randomly in the '80s, '90s and '00s? Not so much.

I'll also comb through the boxes and see if I still have any low-pros with the "optional" pizza-cutters still in the nest.

Thanks either way

mainly I'm interested in seeing this "finer" flanged rib backed wheel compared to the normal pizza cutter version...

[C855B]

HA! I found a timeline here: http://www.ebay.com/gds/Kadee-Micro-Trains-MTL-1-160-N-Scale-Variations-Guide-/10000000003822658/g.html  Scroll down to "Wheel Set Variations".

Wow. eBay, of all places. According to the article, low-pro flanges started as an included option in 2002, and thereafter it was just so much schizophrenic craziness and flip-flopping going on until the "standard" flanges in 3/2010. So, Ryan, I'll try to take some pics and measurements, but how they're going to fit within the grand plan I'm not going to be able to nail down. Oh... and rib-backs died in '87.

I will make it a point to compare ribbed-backs and later pizza-cutters.

[peteski]

Would it be possible to see Pics and measurements comparing these wheels? I'm curious about this, I've heard it before but have never seen one of these early mid? pro wheels...

I'm also curious. I only know of the fairly recent mid-profile flange wheels. The only other MT wheels I know that weren't pizza-cutters were the low-profile wheels (and as mentioned earlier, there were 2 distinct kinds made).

[peteski]

HA! I found a timeline here: http://www.ebay.com/gds/Kadee-Micro-Trains-MTL-1-160-N-Scale-Variations-Guide-/10000000003822658/g.html  Scroll down to "Wheel Set Variations".

Wow. eBay, of all places. According to the article, low-pro flanges started as an included option in 2002, and thereafter it was just so much schizophrenic craziness and flip-flopping going on until the "standard" flanges in 3/2010. So, Ryan, I'll try to take some pics and measurements, but how they're going to fit within the grand plan I'm not going to be able to nail down. Oh... and rib-backs died in '87.

I will make it a point to compare ribbed-backs and later pizza-cutters.

@pmpexpress

That review was done by Neville - he is a member here.  He also has few errors in that writeup (regarding the wheels).

FWIK, the first wheelsets produced by Kadee Micro-Trains N scale used molded Delrin axles with blackened white-metal ribbed-back wheels I own one truck with those wheels.

The next (second) iteration (first in Neville's writeup) used blackened white-metal (not steel) axle with Delrin ribbed-back wheels. Kadee would have not used steel axles because it would mess up magnetic uncoupling.

[Ron McF]

Here's a photo of the two types of ribbed wheel sets that Peteski mentions:


On the left is the second version, which had a metal axle and plastic wheels. On the right is the first version with plastic axles and metal wheels. I suspect that the first (plastic axle and metal wheel) design wasn't around for too long as I have only a dozen or so examples of them, compared to 100+ of the other (later) version.  To my eye, in both cases the flange is about the same depth as on the later one-piece "pizza cutters", but the edge is not as sharp.

When I started using Atlas C55 track I swapped out all my wheel-sets for low profile wheels. Lighter cars received metal wheel-sets from Intermountain and others, and the rest got plastic low-pros from Atlas (about 200 cars) or MTL (about 50 cars).  I subsequently found that during reverse moves the MTL low-profile wheels were almost as unreliable as the high-profile "pizza cutters", because they still retained the sharp flange which would pick the point blades. They've now all been replaced with wheels that have rounded flange edges.

These days my wheels of choice are MTL's latest "standard" wheels with rounded medium profile flanges. They operate as reliably as any metal wheels I have, and cost less.

The deep sharp flanges caused no end of problems during operating sessions. Once all cars were retrofitted with the M/T medium flanged wheels most of my problems disappeared.
Rod.

That was my experience as well.

Regards,
Ron

[Sokramiketes]

Who cares, they're all still plastic wheels!  Standardize on some metal wheelsets and your track will stay cleaner.  A big plus for a layout the size you're building.

[central.vermont]

FWIK, the first wheelsets produced by Kadee Micro-Trains N scale used molded Delrin axles with blackened white-metal ribbed-back wheels I own one truck with those wheels.

I know were you got that wheel set.

Jon

[reinhardtjh]

Who cares, they're all still plastic wheels!  Standardize on some metal wheelsets and your track will stay cleaner.  A big plus for a layout the size you're building.

Mike's point to asking was that he expects the possibility that guests might come and bring their own cars.  Many of these guests are set in their ways and running much older MT/Kadee cars which may have the pizza cutter wheel sets.  He wanted guidelines so he could make orders to route these cars over specific areas which would avoid problems.

[pmpexpress]

@pmpexpress

That review was done by Neville - he is a member here.  He also has few errors in that writeup (regarding the wheels).

FWIK, the first wheelsets produced by Kadee Micro-Trains N scale used molded Delrin axles with blackened white-metal ribbed-back wheels I own one truck with those wheels.

The next (second) iteration (first in Neville's writeup) used blackened white-metal (not steel) axle with Delrin ribbed-back wheels. Kadee would have not used steel axles because it would mess up magnetic uncoupling.

Peteski,

As always, a really keen eye for details, which is often unappreciated by those lacking an interest in extensive studies.

While I have drafted a whole bunch of notes for an updated (and corrected) version of the ancient manuscript, no longer involved with eBay, it made no sense to bother with the outdated (and inaccurate) copy that remains on the venue.

Given a complete lack of interest in articles pertaining to the pioneering days of N-Scale, I simply discontinued the practice of updating old manuscripts and stopped creating new material.

Why bother if no one really cares about the topic?

[C855B]

Interesting! I was just schooled. The ribbed-back wheels have deeper flanges than the classic one-piece pizza-cutters.

Both wheelsets have a tread diameter of 0.205" at the flange and 0.202" at the rim. Ribbed-backs' flange diameter is 0.276", corresponding to a tread depth of 0.0355". All-plastic pizza-cutters' flange diameter is 0.272", so tread depth is 0.0335".

Does that 0.002" make a difference? Yes, why yes it does. The old wheels will chatter on M.E. C55, and are hopeless on C40. The newer deep-flanges have no issues with M.E. C55, but chatter on C40 and will (still) not negotiate Atlas C55 crossings, at least not well.

For academic sake, the new "standard" compromise MTL wheels are 0.210" diameter (tread at the flange) and 0.255" diameter for the flange, corresponding to a flange depth of 0.0225". They run everywhere just fine.

Mike's point to asking was that he expects the possibility that guests might come and bring their own cars.  Many of these guests are set in their ways and running much older MT/Kadee cars which may have the pizza cutter wheel sets.  He wanted guidelines so he could make orders to route these cars over specific areas which would avoid problems.

A-yup. Not only that, but plastic wheelsets don't work all that well with current-based occupancy detection.

From what we've gleaned so far, I'm now waffling between fancy Special Instructions, or just telling the guys "Sorry," that their trains are fine for running on the club's N-Trak roundy-round, but it's the 21st century now and we do things differently. (Oh, that'll make friends. )

[pmpexpress]

@pmpexpress

The next (second) iteration (first in Neville's writeup) used blackened white-metal (not steel) axle with Delrin ribbed-back wheels. Kadee would have not used steel axles because it would mess up magnetic uncoupling.

Actually, as they were only marketed marketed as blister packaged (stock number MT-1057) twelve-packs of replacement wheel-sets, or found on pairs of factory assembled, blister packaged (stock number MT-1000) Bettendorf trucks, not used on any of the Kadee Micro Trains production models (including any of the first five, or eight, if all of the paint variations are factored in November 1972 releases), the cast metal wheels with the Delrin axles were intentionally omitted.

Part of an enhanced, historical trivia section, some of the aforementioned information was included in one of the original manuscript's revisions

[Missaberoad]

Interesting! I was just schooled. The ribbed-back wheels have deeper flanges than the classic one-piece pizza-cutters.

Both wheelsets have a tread diameter of 0.205" at the flange and 0.202" at the rim. Ribbed-backs' flange diameter is 0.276", corresponding to a tread depth of 0.0355". All-plastic pizza-cutters' flange diameter is 0.272", so tread depth is 0.0335".

Does that 0.002" make a difference? Yes, why yes it does. The old wheels will chatter on M.E. C55, and are hopeless on C40. The newer deep-flanges have no issues with M.E. C55, but chatter on C40 and will (still) not negotiate Atlas C55 crossings, at least not well.

Thanks Mike! Confirmed what I suspected from my observations, but I have heard about earlier wheels with a "Low profile" many times so I wasn't sure.

From what we've gleaned so far, I'm now waffling between fancy Special Instructions, or just telling the guys "Sorry," that their trains are fine for running on the club's N-Trak roundy-round, but it's the 21st century now and we do things differently. (Oh, that'll make friends. )

Friends don't let friends run chattery wheels