Vancouver port layout ideas

[Scottl]

I have been doodling in SCARM for a few weeks and the layout idea below is a composite of elements from different areas of the Vancouver waterfront.  It is meant to be a modern setting with unit trains of commodities like oil, coal, sulphur and phosphate, along with a prominent intermodal port, and some smaller industries that generate a mix of traffic.  This would be CN themed, but some CP or even BNSF trackage rights might be extended for interest.

I have tried to see what would work in a modest space and would be operationally interesting for one or two people, perhaps even a third if space allowed.   I've borrowed here the concept of serial staging that @GaryHinshaw has implemented on his Tehachapi BC layout with several long semi-hidden tracks along the back.  Flexibility would be increased by having a crossover mid-way through and perhaps a third track.  There are no grades and essentially all track would be visible and accessible with some screens to minimize transitions on the return loops.
 
I think what is missing here is some kind of general storage yard to make up trains and to keep the mainline open.  I could probably squeeze in a 3-4 track single-ended yard on the top portion of the layout.   Any feedback would be most welcome.  Thanks!

[wazzou]

If it were me, I'd aim to have some sort of classification where the intermodal yard is.
As is the case in many terminals, the intermodal is somewhat detached in the same vicinity of the classification yard.
Maybe shorten those phosphate tracks to accommodate this.

[Scottl]

That makes sense.  I want the intermodal yard up front (along the water) but perhaps there is a way to build in a classification yard along the main behind.  The phosphate terminal could be moved or eliminated if needed.   Thanks for the input.

[mark dance]

I hate to take  a nice, simple, single level dog bone and complicate things Scott, but if you turned the back tracks along the wall into two opposing ramp tracks which pass by each other and lead down to a lower level , perhaps you would have room for a staging deck underneath (with switches along the front edge)?

I don't think the serial staging will be adequate for the variety and length of trains you may wish to run. 

By ramping down those tracks the space above the ramp tracks might be available for removable industries (warehouses, and single car spot locations) for more switching.

You may also be able to fit a small classification yard where the lumber reload is which would receive transfer runs (from staging) for a local switcher.  If you nixed the petroleum industry you would have additional room for this yard and the industries it serves running over top of the descending turn back curve leading to the ramp track.  A small concrete pad with a track or two for diesel servicing could go here as well for the industry switcher and the transfer locos.

Oh, and a barge slip could go behind the coal/sulfur loop track for barges to Vancouver Island.

just an idea...let the arrows begin...

md

[Scottl]

Mark, those are great ideas, especially moving the staging down below. 

What are modern barge operations like- do they still exist?  You can see some landings on the Fraser River but they don't look active.

[mark dance]

What are modern barge operations like- do they still exist?  You can see some landings on the Fraser River but they don't look active.

This topic is outside of my prototype's time and place...but your design is only representative of Vancouver anyways isn't it?

According to Wikipedia a new barge slip was built on Annacis Island south of New Westminster/Burnaby in 2010 to ship to Nanaimo on Vancouver Island.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Railway_of_Vancouver_Island

md

[GaryHinshaw]

Great to see you following through with this concept!   

I do agree with Mark that anything you can do to beef up the staging will really pay off.  I think putting it below the main level is definitely feasible, however, I fear that a linear ramp won't give you enough vertical separation to access staging in case of trouble.  You might also consider a helix, which could fit nicely in one corner under a massive sulphur and/or coal pile. 

The other thing that strikes me about the plan is that the middle section seems squeezed.  Have you considered a full loop with an operator's pit in the middle?  If you make the main level quite high (55-60") you could easily nod under to gain access, and you could treat the pit as the water.  That way all sides of the layout would be "waterfront."

I think the plan you've sketched has a lot of potential!  Is it the same ~5'x7' footprint as your Cisco layout?

[coldriver]

Mark, those are great ideas, especially moving the staging down below. 

What are modern barge operations like- do they still exist?  You can see some landings on the Fraser River but they don't look active.

BNSF sold the Vancouver barge slip on the south shore of Burrard Inlet to the Southern Railway of British Columbia around 7 years ago and they subsequently closed it in favor of a brand new facility on Annacis Island http://www.railpictures.net/photo/570443/

It's still fairly active with barges to Vancouver Island, Howe Sound, and Powell River (perhaps a few more locations I can't think of). 

[mark dance]

Another question is how tied are you to a continuous run loop configuration (for train watching for example)? A loop to loop configuration with lower deck staging and a return loop at one end might provide more real estate on the upper deck as any track to track  clearance issues would be limited to one end...for example it would remove one of two helix if you need helixes for clearance and/or one of the steep ramp tracks.

The train flow might require most trains to operate point to point and be turned in the yard to return to staging. This adds operating complexity and would necessitate yard capacity. For continuous running you could use a coal or sulfur balloon track to turn the trains.

Just an idea.

Md

[wazzou]

I think the plan you've sketched has a lot of potential!  Is it the same ~5'x7' footprint as your Cisco layout?

That is all drawn to fit in a 5' x 7' space?  I can't believe that could be the case, could it?

[GaryHinshaw]

I probably mis-remembered.  Looking back at his Cisco thread, it looks more like ~6'x10'.

[davefoxx]

Alright, I'll be the Debbie Downer of the group.  I think you have waaaaaay too much going on in a limited space.  As it stands, it could easily become gridlocked without a larger staging area added, and there's no destinations for the cars loaded/unloaded at the industries.  The way I see it, since much of your trains would probably be unit trains, your ops would be as follows: pull a train out on the mainline go round and round, and then put it back, so you can pull a train from another industry.

I don't know.  I get that you're dissatisfied with your existing layout, since it's just a roundy-round, but I think the pendulum may have swung too far the other way, i.e., now you've got too much crammed in and still not much in ops.

Sorry ,
DFF

[Scottl]

I was travelling all day so this is my first chance to respond.  Thanks everyone for their input.

The layout space is 10' with 7' on one wall and 5' on the other. 

I agree with Dave that this looks like a lot of track crammed in, but it is all 'mostly' prototypical for the location(s).  I have taken some licence with creating a closed loop but otherwise most of these trackage elements exist in such close proximity.  It might be too much, but in reality, I would likely build it in phases so the right balance could emerge.

My thinking about operations is something like this:

1. Coal and sulphur trains are brought in and go through the loop, slowly.  Not much to do there but they create traffic and I like the models.

2. Grain and phosphate would come in and get broken down and delivered to terminals.  These are often together in blocks in a single unit train. I proto-lanced a grain-container transload rather than conventional grain elevators as this generates both container and grain car traffic and is modest in scale.  There are some in Vancouver for specialty grains like pulses and oil seeds.

3.  There are a number of smaller industries (oil, lumber, paper) that would be served by a mixed freight and need to get spotted and picked up. 

4.  Intermodal trains would come in and get broken into lengths and shuttled in and out of the yard.  Today in a moment of travel-induced delirium (my first flight today was at 5:30AM...) I was thinking about how you could make an operation task out of building up the double stack train with specific containers.  This is much like individual cars but would require a different approach.  I have not thought it through but even doing this by hand would be a challenge, as would distributing containers that arrive. 

There might be other elements, like bad car orders and one of the challenges would be just to keep the mainline open for trains to move while all of this is going on.  It seems like plenty of operations to me, certainly enough to keep 1-2 people busy for an evening.

The point about staging made by several people is very good.  Gary is right that I would probably have to go the route of a helix (or two) to make staging on a lower deck work, but that would give me a lot of capacity to move trains in an out of the main layout.  Mark's suggestion of some kind of out and back with end loops is very intriguing. It would mean only one helix and still give the potential for continuous operation.  With DCC the auto-reversing is simple, so I don't mind the wiring aspect of this.  Operationally, this is basically what CN does anyway, with big yards elsewhere and the essentials at the waterfront.

It goes without saying that I am trying to work my way through this approach to layout design and operations. I'll try to incorporate some of this feedback into a revision.  Thanks again for your comments and don't hold back!

[Scottl]

Those barge operations are really interesting.  I had not initially thought about this as an element, but it gives me food for thought.

[mark dance]

Hi Scott...I messed around with a loop staging yard and a looooonnnngggg ramp track and I am not sure you would need a helix.

On the principal deck I added Yaletown's old track in the street warehouse district, the barge, a barge yard and small class yard...at least one of your large bulk terminals woudl need to be sacrificed.

I will email you the ideas which *have not* been detailed and you can pick through it to see if anything is of any use for you in your next revision.

md