Locomotives with Molded-In Details or Pre-Drilled to Add Details?

[Cajonpassfan]

First of all, I have to say, thank you Shane, for engaging this admittedly picky group in this conversation. That's more than most manufacturers are willing to do. It can't be easy to bring a new, cutting edge product to the N scale market, publish photos 8x its actual size for all the pimples and imperfections to stand out, and listen objectively to criticism. That's not to say that comments here are undeserved, but please keep in mind you're dealing with a very tough crowd. (Ed Nadolski's incredible and meticulously detailed models are hardly the N scale standard; they are something for most of us to gawk at, admire and aspire to. Expecting a mass produced sturdy model at that level is just not realistic).

i've yet to see the Big Blow in person, but I suspect that for a mass produced model, the freestanding details are as good as it gets; .007 grabs translate to slightly more than an inch in diameter, which is pretty darn amazing. However, I wonder whether it's the paint that needs to be scaled down to N scale as well; a little paint buildup in larger scales is no big deal, but in N, it's a killer. Yellow paint especially is difficult for coverage. My other thought is that the grabs just stick out too far, making them more prominent when compared to the prototype, see pics below.

I don't need one of these for my layout, but will likely get one anyway because it's a nice model of such an iconic prototype. Now if you made the 50, I'd definitely get one!

Kind regards, Otto K.

[peteski]

i've yet to see the Big Blow in person, but I suspect that for a mass produced model, the freestanding details are as good as it gets; .007 grabs translate to slightly more than an inch in diameter, which is pretty darn amazing. However, I wonder whether it's the paint that needs to be scaled down to N scale as well; a little paint buildup in larger scales is no big deal, but in N, it's a killer. Yellow paint especially is difficult for coverage. My other thought is that the grabs just stick out too far, making them more prominent when compared to the prototype, see pics below.

I think that you are onto something Otto:  Excessive paint thickness seems to be a common occurrence on Chinese-manufactured models.  I mentioned that in my recent Osgood Bradley car review. I see it on all sorts of N scale models from various manufacturers.

But companies like Kato and Micro-Trains manage to produce models which have a very thin layer of opaque paint. That is actually one of the things which to me produces the right look (or ambiance like someone once said) in models from those manufacturers.

And as you said, yellow is one of those colors which really needs to be applied over white primer to get a good and even color.  TruColor paints do cover well and go on in a very thin layer, but maybe there is thicker coat of primer under the yellow which cause some paint buildup on the Big-Blow grabs?

So here is the example I mentioned earlier, and this is rather not bad paint job on the OG car - one of the thinner (Chinese made) paint layer examples I have seen.  Compare to the MT paint you can see slight mounds of paint around each rivet and around the small square detail on the side of the car.  Also the area between windows seems to have slightly domed shape instead of being flat (looks like the paint was applied so thickly that it dried into that domed shape).

The surface of the MT model is very flat - it clearly shows that the paint layer is very thin.  It looks more realistic to me.

[ednadolski]

Expecting a mass produced sturdy model at that level is just not realistic

Agreed, and I do apologize if I gave the impression that such was my expectation.   That's why I am interested in the Operator level, so I can add my own parts if necessary.

WRT 'sturdy',  in my case the wire handrails are more of a concern than wire grabirons.   The phosphor bronze wire is way better than brass but cannot of course be as resilient as Delrin or other plastics that are twice the diameter.  The PB will bend if handled too roughly, but you can also (gently) bend it back.   Commercial models have to stand up not only to normal (and heavy) modeler handling but also sometimes children and the occasional cat.

i've yet to see the Big Blow in person, but I suspect that for a mass produced model, the freestanding details are as good as it gets; .007 grabs translate to slightly more than an inch in diameter, which is pretty darn amazing. However, I wonder whether it's the paint that needs to be scaled down to N scale as well; a little paint buildup in larger scales is no big deal, but in N, it's a killer. Yellow paint especially is difficult for coverage. My other thought is that the grabs just stick out too far, making them more prominent when compared to the prototype, see pics below.

Can you measure the diameter of the grabirons+paint?   Also, what is the prototype diameter?   In that pic it looks to me more like 3/4", which would make 0.007" wire (plus paint) somewhere around 50% oversized  (definitely a noticeable amount).

Ed


 

[Seligman Sub]

FWIW- Train Masters TV coverage of the NTS has an interview with Mr. Wilson and they show the N scale turbines up close.  They look gorgeous but to the camera, they grabs look a touch chunky.  That being said, my personal experience with my FVM GEVOs is that they look much better to the eye than they do to the camera.  I suspect that is the same here.  If scale trains puts out ET44C4s and SD70Ace-T4s with as much detail and accuracy as the turbines my wallet is going to cry bloody murder.  I must add, I absolutely love what scale trains is doing, keep it up gentlemen!

[ednadolski]

If scale trains puts out ET44C4s and SD70Ace-T4s

Oh that could get me thinking to update my Tehachapi Loop for present-era (with the new double-track)!   

Ed

[High Hood]

For me it depends.  I prefer Atlas style molded on grabs over Kato's, so if they are like Atlas I say molded on.

I do like the dimple/pree drilled idea, but from those two I don't know which would be better.

Can we please get a poll going to visualize the opinions represented so far?

[ryan_wilkerson]

Drilling holes (without dimples or factory holes) is a hurdle for me on Kato, Atlas, and other diesels with molded on grabs. Having dimples would be nice, but factory holes that were painted over sound even better. I also don't like scraping off molded on hand grabs because it requires repainting (and mystery paint matching). I am someone who would purchase the operator model (I installed all the details on my Kato Mikado) and install all of the detail parts so having prepainted parts that I can drill through painted-over holes would be ideal for me. Looking forward to it!

[peteski]

The phosphor bronze wire is way better than brass but cannot of course be as resilient as Delrin or other plastics that are twice the diameter.  The PB will bend if handled too roughly, but you can also (gently) bend it back.   Commercial models have to stand up not only to normal (and heavy) modeler handling but also sometimes children and the occasional cat.

That is why model companies opt for using steel wire (Shane mentioned that). It is even sturdier than phosphor bronze. I suspect it is tempered steel.  FVM used steel wire on their Hiawatha cars (I don't own any of their diesels so I don't know what they used on those).

[wm3798]

Late to the party.  Glad to see this ancient and venerable discussion raising its head again... 
I've always been a fan of well proportioned and well executed molded on details.

It can be done. 

I'll qualify it with the fact that larger chunks, such as roof walks, operable doors, ladders on tank cars, etc. should be separate castings... I mean it IS the 21st century.  But for the typical modeler, add-on grabs, tack boards, and the like only represent added cost and fragility to something that typically is not a part of the family budget, and that gets man-handled pretty aggressively, especially if they only make appearances at N track meets.

That said, I like that there are very nicely done models out there that honor the mathematics of rivet distribution, and I even own a smattering of them.  Just don't look for them to dominate my fleet.

I wouldn't want my models to come pre-drilled, because I don't have time to futz around with a dozen grab irons on each of a 100 hoppers, and I wouldn't do a good job applying them anyway, leaving a bunch of cars that look like crap.

Keep it simple.  If you want to scrape them off and add your own, then you get a gold star.

Lee

[sundowner]

  If scale trains puts out  SD70Ace-T4s

Cat/EMD has to put them out first for there to be a model.

[Missaberoad]

We have a poll now... Be sure to vote everyone!

[johnb]

I am an operator. My 10 year old daughter is an operator. I prefer to have details that can hold up to normal use. I hate seeing shades breaking off of a loco due to them being put back into the box. I love the look of a fully detailed loco, until I have to use it, and worry if my clumsy daughter is going to damage it. We are talking about N scale here, where we are normally too far away to see the free standing details. If this was a conversation about an O scale loco, I would be asking for the best details possible. I would want not only free standing grab irons, be moving gyrolights. But this is N scale, and as long as it looks good from 3 feet away....give me molded on grabs.

[ednadolski]

We are talking about N scale here, where we are normally too far away to see the free standing details. If this was a conversation about an O scale loco, I would be asking for the best details possible. I would want not only free standing grab irons, be moving gyrolights. But this is N scale, and as long as it looks good from 3 feet away....give me molded on grabs.

Well that is the part that I do not quite follow.   If scale-sized details are too small to see at normal operating distance, why would you want to see oversized (molded-on) ones?   Wouldn't it look more realistic just to omit them?

Ed

[TLOC]

Thank you for the poll

TomO

[jagged ben]

Well that is the part that I do not quite follow.   If scale-sized details are too small to see at normal operating distance, why would you want to see oversized (molded-on) ones?   Wouldn't it look more realistic just to omit them?

Ed

Yup. This.