Kato Amfleet consist question- how many cars?

[u18b]

Hey Kato fans.  Doing some research.

How many Kato Amfleet II cars can one plain old stock Kato F40PH pull on flat track.

As a comparison, a stock Kato F40PH can pull only two Backmann Amfleet cars without slipping.

How do Kato cars compare.  If I had a guess it would be 4-6.

Thanks in advance.

And just for the sake of clarity-- these cars only:

[peteski]

While I don't have any specific numbers for you, I do have some observations.

2 cars seems unreasonably low. That loco is relatively heavy and I would think it could pull more than 2 Bachmann Amfleets.  Is it an new out-of-the-box model or did it have some running time?   New locos have a fairly smooth and glossy coating on the wheels and some running time seems to wear off that coating allowing the wheels to have more adhesion to the track.

Which run of Bachmann Amfleets is it?  Are those the original ones (in blue clam-shell boxes) from the late '70s or the current run in large clear plastic boxes.  While the trucks of both versions have extremely poor rolling qualities, the new ones are marginally better.

Kato Amfleet trucks roll much better (they have thinner diameter steel axles running in a lubricated copper bearing, but are still far from rolling as freely as a typical outside-bearing Kato truck.  I would think that with a clean and level trick,and  loco which was broken in, I think you should be able to pull at least 4-5 Kato Amfleets.

[ljudice]

From experience at least 4 plus a Kato baggage car.  Probably more.

They are not as free-rolling as other Kato pass cars but not like the Bachmanns.

[Catt]

One way to improve the rolling ability of the Bachmann cars is to pull the wheel sets from the trucks and chamfer the axle holes the minimize the contact area so there is less plastic to cause drag.

Another way was to get these tiny roller bearings that Detroit Ball bearing made for a customer who defaulted on the purchase.I would show what they look like but I sold them to a local AMTRAK fan when I downsized my layout.

[sundowner]

The F40 starts to slip with 6 on level unit track, 5 are fine

[Dave V]

Never had a slipping problem with my Kato F40PH.

[u18b]

While I don't have any specific numbers for you, I do have some observations.

2 cars seems unreasonably low. That loco is relatively heavy and I would think it could pull more than 2 Bachmann Amfleets.  Is it an new out-of-the-box model or did it have some running time?   New locos have a fairly smooth and glossy coating on the wheels and some running time seems to wear off that coating allowing the wheels to have more adhesion to the track.

2 cars is low because the trucks on a Bachmann car are cr@@@p.  They are super high friction.  (which I have solved- but that is for a later post).

Which run of Bachmann Amfleets is it?  Are those the original ones (in blue clam-shell boxes) from the late '70s or the current run in large clear plastic boxes.  While the trucks of both versions have extremely poor rolling qualities, the new ones are marginally better.

The latest expensive version.  Yes they are marginally better-- but only marginally.

Kato Amfleet trucks roll much better (they have thinner diameter steel axles running in a lubricated copper bearing, but are still far from rolling as freely as a typical outside-bearing Kato truck.  I would think that with a clean and level trick,and  loco which was broken in, I think you should be able to pull at least 4-5 Kato Amfleets.

Yes, that is exactly the point.  They are better.  But not the best.  They could be better.  The inside bearings are the obstacle in both the Bachmann and the Kato cars.

[u18b]

One way to improve the rolling ability of the Bachmann cars is to pull the wheel sets from the trucks and chamfer the axle holes the minimize the contact area so there is less plastic to cause drag.

Another way was to get these tiny roller bearings that Detroit Ball bearing made for a customer who defaulted on the purchase.I would show what they look like but I sold them to a local AMTRAK fan when I downsized my layout.

Yes.  That is what I did.

I installed bearings in the Bachmann cars.

Now one single F40PH can pull TEN of them.  Much better looking and realistic.

And WOW!   
It makes for as pretty impressive train.

[u18b]

Never had a slipping problem with my Kato F40PH.

The problem is not the F40PH. 

It is friction in the Amfleet cars.

What I'm looking for is someone who has a LOT of Amfleet cars who can load up one lone F40PH and see how many Kato Amfleet cars it call pull with no slipping.

Sounds like the number may be around 5.

[u18b]

The F40 starts to slip with 6 on level unit track, 5 are fine

Thanks for the info.
That is helpful.

If anyone else can post his experience, that would be helpful too.

[nscaler711]

How about a tutorial for making the Bmann coaches roll better please? I've got 5...

[mcjaco]

I have five, and the F40 pulls them without any problems on Modutrak.  Can't say what it'd do with more, as I have no need for more Amfleets.  My guess is probably six, maybe seven.

[u18b]

How about a tutorial for making the Bmann coaches roll better please? I've got 5...

Trying to work on an article for publication.

The cars are FABULOUS-- except for their horrible high friction trucks.

Fix that problem (and coupler issues), and you have detailed, well painted, LIGHTED cars.

[sundowner]

I would stick the Kato's, they have better detail, are cheaper to buy and the Kato light kit is easy and cheap to install, plus they don't need extra work to get them roll. Only down side is Kato does not release them in single very often.

Beside Amtrak in practice only runs up to eight car with a single diesel engine.

[peteski]

Trying to work on an article for publication.

The cars are FABULOUS-- except for their horrible high friction trucks.

Fix that problem (and coupler issues), and you have detailed, well painted, LIGHTED cars.

Unfortunately doe to the laws of physics, making low-friction inside-bearing tucks in N scale is pretty much unrealistic.

Yes, tiny ball-bearings seem like a good solution but that would make the car unrealistically expensive. I also hope that those bearings will be very well-shielded as even the tiniest spec of ballast in the races will lock the bearing up.  Also using ball-bearing precludes lighting the car using track power (per the information Max Magliaro posted in his steam loco build thread). Ball bearings do not conduct electricity well. You could add electric wheel-wipers but they you are again increasing friction.

Yes, Kato Amfleets are (not surprisingly) fabulous models, but the inside bearing trucks will remain a problem.  While you are at it, mention that the wheel faces on those trucks are totally wrong. Not only the have somewhat wrong profile, they also molded holes/dimples in them where I have never seen anything like that on the 1:1 wheels.  That is one thing that Kato messed up.