From the manufacturer's perspective... How much detail?

[Puddington]

Model train companies receive a great deal of feedback, commentary and suggestions. A lot is "surface"... ie: I love your "x", keep up the good work or "Why don't you make a "y", I know you'd sell a ton.... We read it all, respond to as much as we can and allow it to guide our general thinking when looking at new products. But there is another kind of feed back on products we get that is different and, quite frankly, leads us to a sticky area, that is "detail".

Truth be told we get ten times of the number of people asking, begging, admonishing us for "too much detail" than we do customers asking for or admonishing us for "too little detail". The reasons we receive are wide and varied; too much detail means the models are too breakable, the details on your model take away from the lack of details on other models (yes, really.... ) and the biggest reason, if you didn't include so much detail, you price could be half of what it is.... (totally untrue but a common misconception)

Here at Railwire, you don't hear any of this; in fact it's commonly considered that comments from members here represent the upper 1% of detail oriented modellers. we expect comments like "you missed the window latches on the washroom windows of the daynighter" or "where's the genamotor connector rod"...

So; the question is; "how much detail is the right amount"? If you "lop off" the top and the bottom of the curve, so to speak (ignore the guy that says make me a model of a car for $8.99, don't worry if you have rivets or handrails, and the guy that admonishes you for not having the name of the manufacturer on the truck side frame casting) you still end up with a very wide range of opinions that make satisfying customers damn near impossible.

The perfect world solution would be , as many suggest, a "value line" and "master line" of all products; nice idea but not practical, nor possible with most products. (You can't just "stick" silvered window frames in some models and not others without two different moulds.) So; the manufacturer is stuck trying to define their place in the market and catering to that segment, while hoping the others will not take you to task to often or to loudly....

How do "modellers" (and for the sake of argument, lets define that as Railwire types) feel about the amount of detail on models...? Should models be plain Jane and detail left to the modeller? Should models come with every single uber detail possible, and be damned those who want a passenger car for under $ 50.00...?

I'm curious.........

[Philip H]

@Puddington,
I'd say don't worry about us at all. Sure if you need really accurate prototype research to develop a new car that you think will sell well TRW is the place to be (at least in N scale). But beyond that we are all over that bell curve.

Take tha GARX reefer curfuffle - I'm not going to buy a single one because they are not era appropriate. I do appreciate the paint schemes - like a lot of folks I got into billboard reefers as a kid because they look cool. So I don't really care about the widths of the grooves between the boards much less how the paint crosses those grooves.

I do care if you out KCS reporting marks on a car type KCS never ran; likewise I care if you make it too difficult to remove the cast on detail IF I decide to replace with etched.

I also care that Rapido seems unwilling to do the LRC in N scale so I can too is up my own NCC 1701 shuttle scheme. But I digress . . . 

[sd45elect2000]

I agree that too much detail makes the model more breakable. I will give you an example: I bought a bunch of three pocket Milwaukee road coal hoppers from Bluford Shops. As soon as I removed one from the box to look at,  I broke one of the brake hoses off. I consider these cars top shelf and they are wonderful models but perhaps that was one detail that should have been left off ? I may or may not even replace the broken ones, I haven't decided yet. I have one in front of me and it is a thing of beauty even with the broken part.

So far I have a nice collection of your Rapido reefers going and they do not have the feel of being excessively fragile. So far I have had many of them out of the boxes and haven't broken anything and I don't fear handling them.

I also have a wonderful model of a 4 pocket ARA 70 ton hopper by Broadway Limited in front of me. I think these have a great amount of detail and won't break from a little handling. They have crisp lettering, good weight and I give it a 10 for workable detail.

As far as your comment concerning passenger cars under 50 bucks.
I model the Milwaukee road so almost all of my passenger cars are custom built. The American Ltd. core car kits were $12.95, the brass car sides ranged from 15- 20 dollars per. wheels plus details, decals and paint put the cost per custom built car around 50 bucks. I don't look at my cars bottom up so I don't "uber" detail the under sides of the cars.

Randy

[Scottl]

The proof is in the pudding.  What sells well for your company and others is probably the best measure of how far to go.  For example, it might be possible to figure out the relative sales volumes Atlas has for its different lines to gauge this objectively.

Another way of looking at it is the number of active members at TRW, which is probably about 100 who post regularly (and many more that follow silently or rarely post), and consider the breadth of opinions posted.  It almost certainly applies here that posts on many issues regarding detail, road names, model preferences reflect strong push back from a tiny fraction of the potential sales of a given model.

Notwithstanding the tolerance for detail expressed by different modelers, the thing I'm struck by is that some models, no matter how they are executed (good, bad or ugly!) seem to drive strong demand.  For example, after reading the reviews about the K4, it seems many chose to plug their nose for a "mostly" good model, and pony up the high price for something they really wanted.  Many will jump in and state the model is fine (and it probably is), yet the purists found many reasons to voice comments otherwise.  It is one example of a microcosm that you are seeking answers from.  I would take it all with a grain of salt and let people vote with their money.

[ednadolski]

I'm generally OK with less detail OOTB, if the only alternative is the oversized/chunky detailing that cannot be removed without becoming a major re-paint project.  Molded-on grabirons are the perfect case in point.  Just leave them off like FVM does, and that does not seem to have hurt their sales.  (Most folks seem to be way more worried about the color tone of the paint schemes - an inevitably problematic issue, it would seem.) 

Certain things like oversized stirrups are unavoidable, since getting these anywhere near scale size would be way too delicate.  Fortunately it is trivial to trim off the factory ones, so that is not any kind of problem for detail-oriented modelers.


HTH,
Ed

[Puddington]

I like details and am willing to pay for them.... my view is that I have enough work with projects to make cars that are not available, so why buy something to have to detail it if I can get it fully tricked out.... I'm not rich by any means but the difference between $ 35.00 and $ 50.00 isn't worth my ten hours of labour which can go to other projects..... just me.

[mu26aeh]

I am in the "in between" camp.  I like to have cars that have good detail, piping, ladders, grabs etc, but I also don't want to have them so fragile that when I remove from box or handle them, I end up snapping them off or bending/breaking them.  But don't want to spend hours trying to drill holes, glue, place, find that one piece that went flying across the room when I tried to pick up with tweezers, or if I don't do that, model looks incomplete.  Also don't want to spend another $10/car to have all applied at factory.  I understand it takes skill/time to have factory put them on but often drives model out of my price range.  I will generally cap price at $20-25 unless it's a must have (I have very few that fall in that category).  Running N Scale, and having cars weathered/graffiti-ed , some detail gets lost, along with when the train is moving how much can you pick out.  As long as car looks good, and runs good, I will look into buying it. 

Case in point, the new Scale Model Trains.  If I were in HO scale, since we don't know what is going to go on in N Scale division yet, I would draw the line at the Operator line of cars.  I can't see another $16/car for the extras unless it was a shelf queen or static display item.

[bbussey]

What I do generally is:  if you can see a certain detail on a photograph of the prototype at N scale size, then I include it.  If you can't see it, but it is a detail that modelers expect to be there (such as rivets), I will enlarge it to the point where it is visible in N scale under paint but not over-exaggerate it.  Details more noticeable on the body take precedent over details normally unseen if the model is upright (if I could do it over, I would not have as much intricate underbody detail on the X58 as the cost increase did not justify the "wow" factor).  I will make a detail free-standing if it can be done without an exaggerated oversize and it cannot be simulated realistically as a molded-on detail on the main body (such as etched metal roofwalks).  I won't design moving parts such as operating sliding doors unless a model operated in multiple configurations, such as a ventilated reefer.  I may design a sliding door as a separate detail part so that the modeler can "pose" the car with an open door at a siding if desired.  I also, in the deco phase, try to match to specific photos of the prototype including any idiosyncrasies of the prototype in the photo, which also adds to the level of detail.

[basementcalling]

I am in the same camp as EdK. My pet peeve detail to remove is the molded in windshield wipers on Atlas/Kato windshields. Looks nothing like a real one,  and removal is almost impossible without messing up the engine if I want to add the very nice GMM etched wipers.  Same with grab irons, especially on UP yellow engines, fixing the paint after removal is a challenge without air brushing.. MU hoses and plows are parts I enjoyed adding to my engines,  but now most top shelf offerings come with these already installed.

I think handling has to be factored in too. If you put the details on only for regular use, and admittedly in n scale that often involves more packing and unpacking of cars because of modular set ups, to be likely to remove or damage the parts,  then I don't really want to pay for it.   So items around the trucks and other frequently touched areas are suspect. Also,  is it visible.  I love etched coupler platforms on Exact Rail cars,  abdominal cut levers are neat too I suppose, but when the car is in the train these details are very hard to see. Same with end printing of road numbers.

Would putting more emphasis on quality painting ,  weathering,  and scale cross sections be more beneficial than cramming on more and more detail parts?

[Specter3]

Since I have only my club setups to run things on I am partial to having a car be less expensive and getting more to fill out the train rather than more expensive and higher detailed. I like 50-60 cars and a nice lashup of diesels or 30 cars and 2-10-2. I have to get those to and from the show. So they are handled a lot and I need quite a few to make myself happy. So count me as firmly in the lower end of that bell curve.

[jagged ben]

@Puddington

How does it affect price and other issues to include painted details which can be added by the modeler if the modeler wishes?  i.e. exactly like Fox Valley Models does with their locos?

Mind you, I haven't had the time to add any of the details to my FVM locos, but I really appreciate that they are there if/when I want to, and this sort of thing would seem to be the answer to what you are talking about.

FVM is the not the only ones to ever do this sort of thing.  Athearn had the optional screens on their Bay Window cabooses.  Atlas and BLMA have provided configurable parts on some intermodal cars. 

I would think that for how Rapido is positioning themselves in the market this would be a good strategy.  Us 1 percenters can't complain about having to add our own details.  In fact, many of us appreciate having some modeling to do instead of the car being completely RTR.      And all of those other loser complaints might be nipped in the bud.    

[Puddington]

@Puddington

How does it affect price and other issues to include painted details which can be added by the modeler if the modeler wishes?  i.e. exactly like Fox Valley Models does with their locos?

Mind you, I haven't had the time to add any of the details to my FVM locos, but I really appreciate that they are there if/when I want to, and this sort of thing would seem to be the answer to what you are talking about.

FVM is the not the only ones to ever do this sort of thing.  Athearn had the optional screens on their Bay Window cabooses.  Atlas and BLMA have provided configurable parts on some intermodal cars. 

I would think that for how Rapido is positioning themselves in the market this would be a good strategy.  Us 1 percenters can't complain about having to add our own details.  In fact, many of us appreciate having some modeling to do instead of the car being completely RTR.      And all of those other loser complaints might be nipped in the bud.    

We do that too.. the famous Rapido baggie, complete with all kinds of stuff and decals..... sounds great, right ?

Let me give you one small example of modeller applied details...

On our HO scale FL9 we left the rear unit ladder of because it was only ever applied to two locomotives. We left it in the box. We thought about putting dipples in the mould so the modeller could see where to drill but was told we better not because those that didn't use it would hate the non prototypical dimples. We couldn't do it from the inside due to the way the shell was made so we didn't put anything; other than written instructions on where the ladder should go.....

..... and we got flayed..... I mean flayed in writing on forums.... we were called every name in the book and one guy DEMANDED a refund.....

Modeller applied details are fine; for some... they are an insult to others and there is always the "fun" of making sure they get made and inserted into the "baggie"..... they are, to be blunt, a royal pain in the prime mover.....

.... from the manufacturer's perspective.

[Chris333]

There are times when a separate part looks worse than a molded on part. Sometimes it looks worse because of poor assembly. This is why Intermountain's stuff looks so bad. Hard to fix it when it's glued together.

I laugh out loud every time someones says they can't put the handrails on a Kato Mikado. Really? you are in the wrong scale, period!

The HOn30 crowd is the worst. If you add all the details for $15 they complain, but a paper model box for $3 and they are happy. HOn30 should be a craftsman scale, but they have turned it into a joke.

[Sokramiketes]

Details don't matter one bit unless overall proportions and macro level tooling is up to snuff. As a modeler, I'm happy to add to a great model. If the base model has a hood that is too wide, board gaps too deep, or molded on parts that are time consuming to remove, then I lose interest. So worry about underbody detail all you want, but if the basic car body is rubbish, then you lose sales to the 25% of the market that also might pay more for the extra cost of factory details.

75% of the market will buy a model just because it is new. If you're catering to them, then why sweat the details?

[sizemore]

As a rivet counter I echo Bryans opinion, if it is visible and can be faithfully reproduced, add it.

My biggest gripe is consistency in the details and the manufacturing process to apply the details. This goes beyond just passenger cars. I see it a lot with metal/etched details:

 - Grills or walkways that have popped/bulging because its just slightly over sized and the glue let go in shipping.
 - Hand rails that are bowed out due to being over sized or a hole that has "walked" when provisioned and the detail was still shoe horned on the model.
 - Foot rungs/grabs installed that aren't straight.
 - Over application of "safety yellow" creating handrails that are "foot thick".
 - Road specific parts installed that just need a little extra care during the assembly process, poor fit, sitting at a slight angle or single part compromised of smaller parts that zig-zag.

As far as Rapido passenger cars I'm pretty comfortable with the level of detail for the street prices I've purchased them for ($35-$45). As far as the exterior is concerned there isn't much you could skimp on to lower the cost if you apply "Bryans Theorem". About the only place would be the undercarriage on full skirted models.

Humbly Submitted,
The S.