Crossing the Main while Switching

[basementcalling]

After a week away in dreary, humid, rain on me every day Florida, I returned to do a bit of work tonight on the Idaho Belt at the paper mill. I'd been tweaking the track plan for this area because while the prototype mill this layout is based on is on a branch that sees no through traffic inside the mill, my version will. And that makes me wonder about the placement of my power plant spur and the pulpwood spur.

First, they are on the main, not off the siding, so at some point the mill switcher would need clearance to use the main through town to switch these locations. On a busy model railroad this could be problematic. Second, the two turnouts face each other (lower right in picture), so the switcher would not be able to work them both without a run around. I have one in the location, but it is off the siding. If mainline traffic diverts through the siding while the switcher works these spurs, what would be the best way to protect the ability of mainline trains to move through without interruption? Right now, I am thinking of two options.

1. Move the pulpwood track to the chip area, though this would not really allow either the chip pile or pulpwood pile to be as large as desired.

2. Authorize the switcher to work each spur, but do so at separate times, so mainline trains would need to run on the siding track to give the switcher clearance to do so.

3. Have another train other than the mill job drop off and pick up cars from these two locations. Another local could drop coal hoppers and pick up empties, and a second train from the local short line that will have traffic rights could drop the pulpwood loads and pick the empties. This could create some interesting congestion in the area though with the mill switcher working - possibly wanting to leave some cars on the passing siding as it does so, and the other trains needing to get clear if a through train is scheduled.

Given the set up, I tend to think a prototype mill crew would figure a way to work both spurs by venturing onto that side of the mill complex once to save moves, other ideas are welcome.

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The black is the main. The siding is green. Mill trackwork is orange. The two spurs in question are bottom right in gray.

Advice?

[randgust]

First glance/first reaction only....

Instead of two facing-point switches in the center, I'd see if it could be redone into a longer, double-ended siding with it coming back to the main on the ends.

That lets the yard switcher or a road local work either end.   It also could be set up so that the (west) end switch could feed into a crossover to get the switcher back into the siding on the other side - rapidly - to get the heck out of the way.  You don't show a crossover between the main and the siding anywhere, that's really needed someplace.

The yard switcher and cars can get in the clear for a main-line movement much easier.

Not sure what's east and west of this view, but if your 'siding' doubled as 'main 2' you simply reroute through traffic via the siding if the local is working the 'main'.

Might even consider a second track on the inside so that car swapping can be done without fouling the main.   The way that would be typically worked is for a 'main line' train to pick up or set off a block on the second track and let the yard switcher deal with sorting and spotting the cars later.   Operationally, that's one of the considerations of how far away you are from the actual yard, and if a locomotive is typically at this site for local switching, or if it is always a distant local that works the site.   That's not always obvious.   If you look on ATSF, they've always struggled with Flagstaff, AZ with the crew base and yard 50 miles away at Winslow.    There's no real yard at Flagstaff, but a lot of local traffic, two heavy bidirectional main lines, and customers on both sides.   It can develop into quite the operational conundrum.   

The goal would be to only have to request clearance to cross the main when starting or finished.   If you were doing signaling, the 'absolute distant stop' would be triggered from throwing the crossover and/or the switches to work the site, as well as dispatching authority.

[Blazeman]

I'd build on option 3 if you are committed to the track arrangement. What is unknown is how far out are the connections between the black and green tracks? Could be some pretty long runs that would have the main occupied if it's a high traffic line.

So, limit the mill switching to the red and green....drops and pulls at the various spots and interchange moves. Coal and pulp be handled on a directional sourcing (coal from one direction, pulp wood from the other) to use trailing point moves to service the spurs in the course of continuing in the direction to the next yard or staging, also doing drops and pulls off the interchange.

That would require blocking of trains at origin so those cars for the power plant, pulp yard and interchange are sequenced to minimize delays. Likewise, the plant switching operator would have to be watching the clock to get cars back to the interchange timely as well as in blocks for the proper direction.

Definitely sweetens the brew with small challenges and extra moves to build the trains properly and timely. So three operators then are involved in car moves at the industry rather than one operator having to cover everything.

And, if your operation is in the right-now era, quite possible the corporate situation at the mill would have separate companies involved in providing power (coal and such) as well as the pulpwood deliveries being vendor-managed, hence those aspects not covered by the mill switching contractor.

[basementcalling]

Thanks, guys.

Here's the entire "town" from one end of the siding to the other. The siding can certainly be used as a second main here. I'm planning to lay concrete ties on the main (ME C55) and wood tie flex on the siding to distinguish them, but operationally they are interchangeable. This "town" is over 1 scale mile from the next west bound "yard, a small interchange yard with a branch that will see independent short line timber traffic. Not sure yet if it will drop the timber for the main railroad to pick up and haul to the mill or if the short line will get trackage rights to the mill.

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I had a third "siding" in the scene in a previous version, but did not like the spaghetti bowl look it gave to the scene when I mocked it up, and the benchwork here is only 13 inches wide, so having 3 "mains" and a mill siding reduced the amount of real estate for the buildings too much. When I cut the 3rd siding, I added the three track storage yard so the mill can hold excess cars and keep the tracks needed for through operation clear.

I like the idea of adding a crossover so any loco switching those spurs can quickly escape to clear the main if needed for a through train meet. Given how I envision the mill requiring 24 hour switching, that would be a good idea to add for the increased flexibility.

Where would the best location be? Should the crossover be close to the pair of spur turnouts in the bottom right or more in the middle of the siding near where the #10 turnout branches off to the mill trackage?

[sd45elect2000]

Put up "yard limit" or "cautionary limit" boards and keep everything at restricted speed.

Randy

[basementcalling]

Crossovers added in bright green.

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[Robbman]

I'd put them in the other direction

[Ed Kapuscinski]

This actually reminds me quite a bit of the issues facing Conrail and NS at Hershey PA.

The chocolate plant (I bet you can't guess who's) had operations on both sides of a busy mainline.

They had things organized so that there could be work on one side, and then work on the other, with hand-thrown crossovers and an interlocking in town where they could do their work.

I think the way it worked was that the crew would work one side of the main, then hop over and do the other when they had clearance.
I also think there might have even been two separate crews.

Check out

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The Harrisburg Vol 1 ZTS map (around page 116):
http://www.multimodalways.org/docs/railroads/companies/CR/CR%20ZTS/CR%20Harrisburg%20V1%20ZTS%2010-1992.pdf

[Cumbo2000]

FWIW I would try a long spur from the west end mainline pass the power plant to the pulp wood area and add one or more short spurs to place coal cars at the power plant for unloading. Make this spur lower than the main and siding and ballast with cinders to make it visually different.

Bob Witt

[ArtinCA]

I would move the crossover towards the end of the coal spur. And, when they were ready, as dispatcher, I would give them track and time to work the main to get the tracks switched. As the switch crew, I'd have my cars lined up and ready on each side of the crossover and then drop and go.

[Santa Fe Guy]

Hi Peter.
I would take out the two turnouts on the black track and add two new ones on the black track opposite the two on the green track. Then with this new track take a turnout of each end into your industries. This will give room for your switcher and local to move around better. You do not need to add the crossovers then as the switcher can then more easily move around its train.
Trust this helps.
Rod.

[sirenwerks]

I'd put them in the other direction

This.  It puts the turnouts for the sidings closest to the switches the switch job will need to get back into the mill complex quickly to clear the main.

[basementcalling]

So more like this? New #10 crossover is in orange.

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In reality, my space between the edge of layout and the siding and the mainline is not quite as generous as shown on the plan.

[John]

So more like this? New #10 crossover is in orange.

(Attachment Link)

In reality, my space between the edge of layout and the siding and the mainline is not quite as generous as shown on the plan.

I don't see the need for this at all ..

[sirenwerks]

My idea, and I think Robbman's too, is to switch the facing directions for each siding and for the switch onto the main for the pulpwood siding to be just below the east siding/main switch and the coal siding switch off the main be closer to the west end main/siding switch.  I'd skip the crossover altogether or place it much further west to accomodate the resituated coal siding switch.