Seeking help sourcing 20" or 24" N scale metal wheels

[Missaberoad]

Here's the dimensions (in inches) of FVM's Z scale wheels... (Thanks and credit go to DKS and his defunct webpage on the subject)
I've included some relevant measurements I just took on a N scale FVM 33" fine tread wheel, should give a decent comparison.

In some cases the N scale wheel is finer then the Z scale wheel!

                                         Z scale      N scale

Axle length                        .403
Width across wheels        .333
Gauge                               .242
Flanges back-to-back        .219
Wheel width                     .057           .060
Tread width                       .043          .042
Flange width                     .014          .019
Flange depth                    .018          .0155
Wheel diameter               .150          .202
Flange diameter               .186          .233

[SandyEggoJake]

Thx Ryan!  That is totally unexpected to find their Z gauge tread with so close to N gauge and the Z flange height is actually larger?!?.  I'm guessing this is a comparison is to a FVM low profile /non pizza cutter wheel.  That certainly has convinced me to follow up with them again to see if they can sell me some bulk uninsulated loose wheels.

Unless anyone has a solution for a 20" N gauge metal wheel, the FVM Z 33" would certainly seem to meet my initial specs for a 24" - at least enough for a test run. 

Thanks all, and I'll be sure to report back with results and pictures. 

[nkalanaga]

I have no experience with FVM Z wheels, but Marklin and MT Z both work on N RP-25 turnouts.  Mine have to, to get through the dual gauge in my station, because the N wheels wouldn't work with Z scale flangeways.

I doubt that they would work well with some of the sloppier commercial turnouts.  They will work with Micro-Engineering #6 turnouts, as I have one in my dual gauge area, and the frog is in the common rail, and a curve no less.  There is some wheel drop with SOME of the wheels, but they work.

I also have an Nn3 rotary snowplow, narrow gauged by putting Nn3 wheelsets in MT archbar trucks.  These used Con-Cor axles, and Marklin wheels, so the idea works.  Marklin wheels seem to be a bout 28 inches in N, so larger than you're looking for, but you may be able to do the same with FVM.

Alternately, cut the FVM axles in half, and use wire insulation as insulated tubing.  Given the wide variety of wire sizes, there should be one exactly right, and the short distance between the axle ends would minimize flexing.  Fairly thick insulation shouldn't bend much anyway.  Black or dark brown might not even have to be painted.

[bbussey]

...  I'll settle for a source of sprues of quality Murphy car ends and roof, as well as MTL like die cast under frames without having to pay RTR prices (or sacrificing 2nd hand MTL cars -which is pretty much what I do now ...

Also look at kits and spare parts from other manufacturers, which eliminates the step of cutting up cars. InterMountain has various roofs, and Red Caboose (now Fox Valley) makes a quality USRA X29 boxcar with Murphy roof and ends. You also have to make certain of the prototypical accuracy of the donor models you are cutting up for partS, so that you don't inadvertently salvage an inaccurate detail.

[SandyEggoJake]

Thx N Kalanaga. 

If Z's work on your dual gauge yard, I suspect such can be made to work in my all standard yard (unlike early version of some AT&SF tie plants, the Nat City yard and tie plant was all standard gauge).  I may have to reconsider my source for my yard track (which is all temp install for now, to be optimized once I get the actual trams and retorts built. 

[SandyEggoJake]

I really appreciate all the help guys, especially Ryan for providing the specs (which I think we all might agree FVM should have posted on their webpage).    So far no word back from them on my inquiry, but its only been a week. 

I'll leave this open thread open as other existing sources might become known or in the future available especially - for sizes <24" scale in N (<33" Z) which as of now I've yet to find.   

[Doug G.]

...Even the recent availability of 28" or 36" wheels is a fairly recent development.   For years all we had was 33" wheels.

Well, we HAD other sizes from the beginning but they weren't really SUPPOSED to be other sizes.

 

Doug

[peteski]

I really appreciate all the help guys, especially Ryan for providing the specs (which I think we all might agree FVM should have posted on their webpage).    So far no word back from them on my inquiry, but its only been a week. 

I'll leave this open thread open as other existing sources might become known or in the future available especially - for sizes <24" scale in N (<33" Z) which as of now I've yet to find.

If you hang around TRW for a while you will witness some of the wildest (even multi-level) off-topic excursions in various threads. We are sort of famous for it. 

As far as leaving the thread open, you have no control over that. Threads just fade away on their own. Well, they could be locked by the moderators too. 

I also had a somewhat similar exchange with Matt from FVM asking for him to include a cross-reference info, on the website, of the various axle lengths and which brands of models they are compatible with. Unless you have the package of wheels in-hand, that info is not easily available.

He didn't want to post that info on the website because he said that the model manufacturers sometimes change specs of their trucks and he rather not have stale compatibility info just to have angry modelers if the info in the website was incorrect.  I'm not sure I truly buy that excuse, but it is what it is.

But I agree that having the wheelset dimensions on FVM site would be very useful.

[randgust]

Completely left-field, but the 'new' Atlas 4-4-0 has some really sweet tiny wheels and axles on the lead truck, as well as 'real wheels' on the tender that are impressively small.    I'm not advocating scrapping a 4-4-0 to get one necessarily, just remember licking my chops when I saw the quality and profile of those tiny wheels.   And stealing wheelsets off of Kato 11-105/6/7 chassis is by far the easiest way to get high-quality 27" wheels for all kinds of applications out there.

The other 'you have to be kidding' source of tiny N wheels with deeper flange and tread profile turns out to be these darn things:
  http://www.eurorailhobbies.com/erh_detail.asp?mn=22&ca=79&sc=N&stock=BRE-69201     I got an unpowered one just for the wheels.

I look at it this way, I'll put regular wheels under the microbus and steal the flanged wheels for projects.  That's my rationalization.

I'm still looking at powering a hi-rail truck using these.  They are so tiny that the axle gears are the problem, not the wheels.    If there's any interest I get full dimensions reported.

[peteski]

Now that Randy brought up the Atlas 4-4-0, the Kato Portram LRVs have small fine-flanged wheels.  They have plastic gears in the back of the wheel and the models are rather expensive, but they are available and they do have a very small axle hole in them.But a single 100-plus dollar model will only provide you 8 wheels.

[SandyEggoJake]

Thx Randy,

Might I trouble you to at least provide scale diameter of the inspection bus wheels you purchased.  And if you are so inclined while you have the device in hand, what are the flange and the tread widths as well as the flange height and the bore ID?

[randgust]

Sorry, hadn't been back for a while.... OK....so,

All measurements made in decimal inches with a micrometer:

Outside diameter over flange:  .204
Inside wheel diameter at outer edge:  .130  (20.8" scale)
(yeah, the flange is deep, looking like .035 is about it)
Wheel width front to back:  .086
Flange width:  .025
Calculated tread width (.086-.025) .061
Axle diameter is .046
There's a bushing on the back of the wheel (solid) that is .015 thick and .105 in diameter, making the inside 'clearance' .260 inside the bushings.

Really nice material, roll flawlessly through Peco and Atlas C80 switches with those deep flanges.  Insulated on one side and solid on the other.  Every other tiny wheel like this I've seen drops like a rock going through a frog.   It does look like they could be turned if you wanted to reduce the flanges.    But on a tiny 4-wheel chassis that you want to power, a wheel drop in a frog is usually an instant electrical stall as the opposite wheel lifts.  Stability counts.    Now on your little tie carts, it's much less of a problem.  I've put MT low-pro's on my bitty V&T ore cars and they work just fine through the same switches.

[SandyEggoJake]

Thanks Randy. 

BTW, is there a free online wheel database out there (that includes N scale)?  I can imagine such a reference that might not only include wheel sets, but also locomotive drivers, etc.

[SandyEggoJake]

So NWSL has backed off their initial interest to cut me some Z scale 33" (N scale 24") with N like flange and tread.  Can't say I blame them, especially when I found out they don't run their lathe with a CNC. 

Before I buy and strip from FVM, I've been exploring the Z 33" metal wheels from others: Full Throttle (made for Will by Bowser), Marklin & AZL.    Anyone have the specs on these later three?  (I'm particularly interested in wheel specific dimensions including tread width, flange width and flange depth.  Again for use in N, I will be stripping them off the axle. 

[narrowminded]

Hi,
New guy here, retired machinery designer and builder still actively consulting, recently returned to modeling and in with both feet scratch building a very small chassis to be used in small battery style mine locos (not actually running on batteries but like this http://industrialrail.5u.com/images/mancha-mainliner.jpg ) and have recently started seriously considering producing them and several types of very small power trucks for sale.  My point is, these wheels could be made, first rate quality and to NMRA spec but cost might be an issue.  Cost like maybe as much as $4-$6 each wheel run in short production runs in the hundreds, not thousands.  It's a bit premature at this point but I may be using just such a wheel and smaller for some mine cars that will inevitably be built for the mine loco project AND if future investigations prove that they will even run through switches and such OK (haven't given even a cursory look at that yet).  As this has come up now and it's on folks mind, I figured no harm in feeling out folks experience as well as the possible market for these parts as an individual item (and similar special small production machined part needs?).  And what sizes?