PRR H10 Remotor

[nscaleSPF2]

Try not to be too disenchanted with Bachmann.
I consider them very valuable even though I have a love/hate opinion of them.

I think that we are on the same page, Max, although I may be a little more pessimistic than you.  It's because I have seen first hand what questionable designs and poor customer support can do to a company.  I spent all of my career in the U.S. automotive business.

On the plus side, Bachmann does have some very nice looking steamers.

Can you compile a final parts list?

I can, if anyone is really interested.  The problem is locating the Mashima motor.  I found a small number at a dealer in the Czech Republic*.  But, as far as I know, they have not been made for several years.  No, if I were going to do this again, I would start here:



It's a Kato model 9600.  Does anyone have any experience with this one?  The motor is mounted more forward, so it probably not have to be relocated/replaced.  DCC friendly.  And it does have a flywheel.

Looks like I will need to revamp my shapeways H10!

Piperguy, have you printed the tender in FXD material?  It may improve the detail on the sides.

*Edit: originally wrote Czechoslovakia.  No offense to our Czech friends.

[Cajonpassfan]

Jim, the 9600 is a much smaller loco.  It is quite nice and a solid mechanism for some other project. I have it for a 0-8-0 swicher.
Otto K

[nscaleSPF2]

We interrupt this thread for a Public Service Announcement.

Attention all Bachmann-ites

If you own a 2-8-0, I want you to pick up the loco, turn it over, and grab each wheel in turn and wiggle it side-to-side and forward-backward.  Each axle should be "loose", i.e. no friction at all.  If your engine does this, then you are done.  Skip to the next post.



If there is any resistance in any of the axles, then I want you to carefully remove the bottom cover, as shown.  For those of you who have not done this before, be very careful that you do not pull any of the drivers out of the frame, or you will spend a long time putting everything back the way it was.



Notice that there are 2 ridges that run along the sides of the top of the cover.  Thie ridges are about 0.015" high.  What happens is that the ridges cause the cover plate to bend as the screws are tightened.  As the cover plate bends, it comes in contact with the gears.  You can see that this will cause all manner of problems.

So what you need to do is find some 0.015" thick plastic (like from packaging material) and fabricate 3 spacers as shown.  If you size the i.d. of the spacers correctly, they will serve to retain the screws.  This will make reinstallation of the cover a bit easier. 

My cover also had some flash around the openings for the gears.  The flash has to go.

We now return you to normal forum operations...

[nscaleSPF2]

Jim, the 9600 is a much smaller loco.  It is quite nice and a solid mechanism for some other project. I have it for a 0-8-0 swicher.
Otto K

Otto, thanks for the reply.  Would it be possible for you to measure the diameter of the drivers, and the wheelbase (distance between the c/l of the #1 driver to the c/l of the #4 driver)?  Thanks.

[Cajonpassfan]

Jim, I'm in Denver visiting the kids, will do when I get back. Otto

[SkipGear]

We interrupt this thread for a Public Service Announcement.

Attention all Bachmann-ites

If you own a 2-8-0, I want you to pick up the loco, turn it over, and grab each wheel in turn and wiggle it side-to-side and forward-backward.  Each axle should be "loose", i.e. no friction at all.  If your engine does this, then you are done.  Skip to the next post.



If there is any resistance in any of the axles, then I want you to carefully remove the bottom cover, as shown.  For those of you who have not done this before, be very careful that you do not pull any of the drivers out of the frame, or you will spend a long time putting everything back the way it was.



Notice that there are 2 ridges that run along the sides of the top of the cover.  Thie ridges are about 0.015" high.  What happens is that the ridges cause the cover plate to bend as the screws are tightened.  As the cover plate bends, it comes in contact with the gears.  You can see that this will cause all manner of problems.

So what you need to do is find some 0.015" thick plastic (like from packaging material) and fabricate 3 spacers as shown.  If you size the i.d. of the spacers correctly, they will serve to retain the screws.  This will make reinstallation of the cover a bit easier. 

My cover also had some flash around the openings for the gears.  The flash has to go.

We now return you to normal forum operations...

Simpler solution to all this.....Don't crank the screws down tight. This has been a common fix for these loco's for years.

Also, I believe the motor you seek is an OEM Atlas part... Replacement motor for an MP15.
I used them a few years back to re-motor a couple old Arnold GG-1's for a friend. They worked great.

[mmagliaro]

Do you mean the Mashima 1015 motor you used in this project?

You can get it from a lot of places.  You just have to dig through all the overseas sources.

Here are some I know of that carry it: 

One is the Czechoslovakia dealer you mentioned: (I think you mean this one:  http://www.pojezdy.eu/eshop/6-mashima-motors)
I have exchanged some messages with him, but never bought any motors because the shipping was just too expensive.

They are also available from micro-loco-motion (Eldon Shirey)  http://www.micro-loco-motion.com/  (his website has not been
updated in years.  Just email him).  I've bought lots of motors from Eldon over the years, and he is still my go-to guy
for Faulhaber, Maxon or Mashima.

Hollywood Foundry in Australia: http://www.hollywoodfoundry.com/   I've bought from them.   If you buy a few motors,
their prices are good enough that the shipping isn't oppressive.

There is also a seller from Germany who regularly sells lots of 3 or 10 of those Mashima 1015's on eBay. 

Gizmoszone.com from Hong Kong also has them.


///////////////
One final edit:
Isn't that Atlas MP15 motor a 3-pole motor?  If so, it is not the same as the Mashima.  It may fit and work well, but
just so people are clear: they may be the same physical size, but they are not the same motor.

[nscaleSPF2]

Simpler solution to all this.....Don't crank the screws down tight. This has been a common fix for these loco's for years.

Sorry, tried that solution, SkipGear.  The engineer in me will not allow loose parts on the engines.  They usually fall off, invariably in the middle of a tunnel.

[nscaleSPF2]

Do you mean the Mashima 1015 motor you used in this project?

You can get it from a lot of places.  You just have to dig through all the overseas sources.

Here are some I know of that carry it: 

One is the Czechoslovakia dealer you mentioned: (I think you mean this one:  http://www.pojezdy.eu/eshop/6-mashima-motors)
I have exchanged some messages with him, but never bought any motors because the shipping was just too expensive.

Max, that is the motor I used.  Shipping from the Czech Repubic was not that bad.  Six dollars for 2 motors via FedEx. 

Did not realize that these are still available from so many sources.

[Cajonpassfan]

Otto, thanks for the reply.  Would it be possible for you to measure the diameter of the drivers, and the wheelbase (distance between the c/l of the #1 driver to the c/l of the #4 driver)?  Thanks.

Well Jim, I'm back home, and it seems I remembered it wrong. 
I do own the 9600, but it's not Kato but MicroAce. It IS a much smaller loco than the Bachmann 2-8-0, I remembered that correctly. For what it's worth, the MicroAce has a fixed wheelbase of 16' (1.2") and 52.3" (.327") diameter wheels, perfect for a 53" drivered switch engine. Don't know about the Kato version, but suspect it is very close.
Here's a comparison photo of the MicroAce and Bachmann consolidations...
Kind regards, Otto K.

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

[nscaleSPF2]

For what it's worth, the MicroAce has a fixed wheelbase of 16' (1.2") and 52.3" (.327") diameter wheels.

Otto, thanks very much for taking the time to get the information.  The MicroAce is very close, but not quite close enough for me to make it work.

Regards.

[nscaleSPF2]

So the moment of truth arrived for the project engine.  Here are the test measurements:

DCC Speed Step 1/28 - speed is less than 1 mph.  Motion is constant, but jerky.  A flywheel would smooth out the jerkiness, but, well, we don't have room for one.

Speed Step 2/28 - speed is 3 mph.  Engine runs much more smoothly.  Performance is ok, by my standards.

Speed Step 7/28 - speed is 15 mph.  Either without, or while pulling 14 boxcars.  ok.

Speed Step 14/28 - speed is 25 mph with 14 cars, 32 mph without.  ok.

Speed Step 20/28 - speed is 25 mph with 14 cars, 40 mph without.  A little slow, but still ok for this class of locomotive.  I'm thinking that the speed may increase with more break-in miles.

Higher speed steps do not increase the engine speed, but they do make the electric motor really hot.  Too hot to touch.

The other annoying thing is that the engine rocks back and forth after pulling 14 cars for about 15 minutes or so.  This is apparently caused by the traction tires moving sideways in their grooves, and changing their shape ever so slightly.  Those drivers have to go.  Going to use Kato Mikado tires, too.

I wish I had a way to measure the motor current and voltage, but, with DCC, I don't.

[victor miranda]

run the loco on DC and measure the volts and amps.

the current will be the important part.  the voltage will be higher.
With most decoders you will get a good approximate by subtracting 4 volts.

victor

[mmagliaro]

Ack!  Heat!   No!

I agree with Victor...
Bypass the decoder, run this on DC, and measure that current before you do anything else!

If that motor got that hot, it may already be too late.

This one really concerns me:
"Speed Step 20/28 - speed is 25 mph with 14 cars, 40 mph without."   That's a huge swing with only 14 cars.

Coupled with the high motor heat, either the motor is plain overloaded or there are frictional
forces in the geartrain that get really high when there are some cars on the train.   That little Mashima is
pretty powerful for its size, so I think it should be able to handle this without getting hot.  Can you
look at it running with the shell off?  Maybe with cars on it, the worm is getting pushed hard against
one end or the other, or the ball/cup is using up all its slack and pushing on the motor bearings.

[SkipGear]

My guess by looking at the earlier pictures is that the worm under load is driving itself into the bushings and causing the extra drag. There needs to be a brass or teflon thrust washer on either end of the worm shaft between the worm and the bushing. That may help some.