KATO GS-4 remotor project ? ? ?

[delamaize]

Ah, now I get it. The ones that don't use BEMF all have the option to add a cam to the driver to trigger the chuffs. Even the ones that use BEMF have option to use a cam.  But using cams in N scale is rather cumbersome.

The cam will have lobes for each chuff.  A cam can be made from a printed circuit board and a contact wiper.

Those are how I did the steam chuff on my GS4.....pain in the a$$, wouldn't do it again.

[peteski]

Ah, okay.  Quite a chore, though.

Sure is, especially in N scale.  That is why electronic sync (BEMF or however it is done) is a very elegant solution.

[carlso]

I received my motor/gearhead today and am anxious to get started. It is almost going to be a drop in and play. Here are some pictures.

The motor gearhaed unit .........


Here is the motor sitting on the top of the bottom half of the chassis. If I decide to go this way, I can put a plastic shim under the motor that would insulate the motor and raise it approx 2mm so output shaft would be in line with worm shaft.......................


However, If I decide to use the KATO chassis top 1/2 which is the motor cradle then I will not loose as much weight. I can, by milling 4 areas on the frame incase the motor with the original cradle and do some adjusting to get it in line with worm shaft. I can if necessary set the motor back towards the rear by 10mm.


Next I will order some parts for the worm gearhead connection from NWSL.

Thanks for looking and any suggestions are always welcome.

Carl

[jdcolombo]

Okay, but you said some makers do not use BEMF.  That's what I want to know.
How do they sync up the chuffs if they aren't using BEMF and don't have an axle wiper?

For those decoders that don't use BEMF sync (e.g., Tsunami), another way to sync the chuffs is to use a custom speed table.  The chuff rate on the TSU is fairly linear from speed step 1 through 128.  You can set the TSU to use a custom speed table, and then enter the values necessary to make the drivers turn at the same rate as the chuffs.  I've done this many times, and it works well because the BEMF circuit keeps the motor turning at a constant rate even under load.   In fact, this is how I did the chuff matching for my Kato FEF sound installation, which uses a Zimo MX621 for motor control, with a Tsunami heavy steam decoder in the tender.  I set the chuff rate on the TSU at a value that matched the driver rotation at speed step 1.  Then I programmed the Zimo with a custom speed table to match the driver rotation at speed steps 2 on up (until the drivers are moving too fast to actually notice whether the chuffs are synced or not).  If you look at the video below, I think you will find that the chuffs are pretty-well matched to the driver rotation using this method:

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But using an ESU LokSound with the BEMF chuff timing is a WHOLE lot easier to do.  It's literally a five-minute job - you first set the chuff timing at speed step 1 using CV57; then crank up the speed to about step 20 (of 128) and adjust for best timing at that speed using CV58.   Once you've set those two, the BEMF circuit "knows" how many motor turns correspond to a chuff, and everything is kept in sync electronically.

John C.

[mmagliaro]

Now THAT's a coreless motor!  (Are you listening... model railroad manufacturers???... sorry... had to say it.  )
Look at the bearing on the end of that gearhead.... ya pays yer money and ya gets quality.

Carl, have you applied clip leads to that motor to watch it run.  It'll be amazing.

I think you should be able to pull that cup fitting off the end of the worm shaft, and then put some NWSL cups
on, one on the worm shaft and one on the motor shaft, with a "dogbone" connector between them, and you should be
good to go.  You could probably just take off that cup and join the two shafts with a piece of
neoprene aircraft fuel tubing too.    The dogbone joint would be better, though, because it would allow the gearhead
and worm bearings to do their own thing without pushing on each other.

If it were me, I'd keep it as simple as possible and not bother with the Kato top frames, unless they would be handy for supporting the shell.    You can easily add some sheets of lead back there to make up for the lost weight.

I received my motor/gearhead today and am anxious to get started. It is almost going to be a drop in and play. Here are some pictures.

The motor gearhaed unit .........


Here is the motor sitting on the top of the bottom half of the chassis. If I decide to go this way, I can put a plastic shim under the motor that would insulate the motor and raise it approx 2mm so output shaft would be in line with worm shaft.......................


However, If I decide to use the KATO chassis top 1/2 which is the motor cradle then I will not loose as much weight. I can, by milling 4 areas on the frame incase the motor with the original cradle and do some adjusting to get it in line with worm shaft. I can if necessary set the motor back towards the rear by 10mm.


Next I will order some parts for the worm gearhead connection from NWSL.

Thanks for looking and any suggestions are always welcome.

Carl

[SkipGear]

Looking at that, I think the coupling set from a Kato Mikado would work very will in that situation. Distance between the worm and motor looks like it may be awfully tight for a dogbone. The Mikado coupling makes a very short setup.

[carlso]

Max,

Yes, I hooked some leads and ran the motor on dc just to make sure it runs. Boy does it! I am leaning towards using the KATO top half frames as they do provide mounting and support for the running boards/skirting as well as the boiler shell. I think some double sided foam tape would hold the motor secure, if not some good grade silicon would. I will be pulling off the cup from the worm shaft and I will be ordering parts from NWSL on Monday. I am so glad you started me thinking along these lines. Tanks!


Tony,

I'll check out the Mikado coupling set but I doubt it if KATO has any in stock anymore. Most likely will go with NWSL parts. The motor, as you see it in the image, can be moved backwards, to the right, by up to 10mm more. I think that would be adequate spacing, if necessary.

My use of the 4:1 gearhead has been questioned on another forum, because the loco will be too slow. But as a very wise man from TRW said to me: a train running at a scale 60mph just doesn't look good in our compressed world of model railroading. I agree, and can hardly wait to see my full Daylight consist, including an auxiliary tender, running slowly through the mountains on our club layout.
I have the original smooth side Daylight cars that I may be able to add some additional cars. "The world's most beautiful train" snaking around the layout will be awesome. May have to run it when nobody else is on the line, that's ok !

Thanks for looking
Carl

[strummer]

Can't wait for the "movie" to come out...

Mark in Oregon

[carlso]

It shall, if too much real life doesn't get in the way.

C

[carlso]

Here is what I have done today.

The first image shows where and how much I milled, quite crude like, but I will dress it with files.................


Second is to show how the motor/gearhead lie quite nicely into the left side chassis half. You can see that I have 10mm of adjustment space to the rear.........................................


I have not checked out the horizontal alignment with the worm shaft. I may have to mill a tad off of the bottom of the cradle or add a styrene spacer on the bottom. As it looks right now a good wrapping of kapton tape may cause the frame to grip and hold the motor quite firmly. Getting excited now. With my ESU Loksound Select Micro decoder this beast should run exceptionally well. Better than a KATO, I think so.

Thanks for looking and all comments are welcome.

Carl

[mmagliaro]

The Kato coupling is a great idea, Tony.
But yes, unfortunately, they are very hard to find.  The pieces that go on the motor and on the worm shaft
 were never available as a separate part on their website, so you could call them up and beg them, but otherwise,
they were tough to get.

I would try it with a NWSL coupling, but also try it with a simple piece of neoprene fuel tubing.   I have had
some engines where it actually ran better with the tubing, even though you would think that relieving
the bearing dependency by using the coupling would be better.

[Norway2112]

Carl,

What motor is that, as in what is the number? Maxon XXXX? 

Thanks,

Phillip

[carlso]

Hi Phillip,

Thanks for asking that question because I was beginning to doubt my purchase, because the number on the tag, as seen in the photos, is not the motor number. It is  the number of the combination motor/gearhead. Maxon's on-line catalog does not list combinations so I could not find it. It is a combination number and says that the combination is an RE10 ( #118386 ) motor plus a GPTK G gearhead ( # 110312 ). So, I learned something today.

Thanks,

Carl

[mmagliaro]

That is an unfortunate fact of life with Maxon.  The combination numbers are a pain and are not listed on
Maxon's site.  Even worse, they are often custom numbers assigned to a run of motors produced for a customer,
and if you call up Maxon and ask them to look up the number and tell you what motor and gearhead it is,
they say they can't because it was a "special run".   

Carl, did you call Maxon to find out that the motor is a 118386?  That's lucky if they told you.  I have been turned down
by Maxon's reps on those questions before.

When a bunch of these end up in the surplus market it's sometimes impossible
to find out what model number the motor really is, other than knowing the series
it is (i.e. "A-Max", "Re-Max" and so on),  and the dimensions.  You can figure out the nominal voltage
rating by measuring the resistance across the terminals and comparing that to the spec sheets at Maxon's site.
(for example, the 6v 118386 has a listed terminal resistance of 20.6 ohms)

[carlso]

Hi Max,

Yes, I called their San Mateo, California office and asked for help in idetifying what I had. The lady sort of laughed and said the number on the motor was for identifying the combination. She then popped out the motor and gearhead number. The motor number agrees with the spec sheet that I rcv'd, however the spec sheet for the gearhead is for a Faulhaber GH and the number given to me by Maxon is not on the Faulhaber spec sheet. What the heck, I just want to get it going.
 
Carl