ConCor/Kato SW1200/1500 Chassis Power Pickup

[victor miranda]

LOL, Bulb grease is back. 
I had a long discussion with Victor about the merits of using bulb grease instead of the lubricants designed for model locomotives. I never really found out what makes bulb grease superior.  Have a look:

http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=69729

you never listened.

[victor miranda]

I guess all my experiences so far with adding lube to contact points has been less than ideal in that it always seemed to impede electrical contact to some degree, including in axle cups. I guess I've always chosen the wrong product, perhaps. I've never noticed worn cups or axle points before and everything else continues to run well. I may need to look a little closer at that though as the pic in that thread you linked is pretty spooky!

the technology for conductive lubricants is new... ish.
to me it all seems like snake oil. 

what I read is that conductive lubricants are not conductive.... by themselves.
they act as any oil or grease in lowering friction.
when used between electrical contacts they do not act as an electrical barrier.
you can used them on commutators and they are effective there.
I have seen such grease on finger brushes.

Here is my advice. 
Believe any one you want for any reason you want on this subject.

I am stating what has worked for me.

I have never claimed more than that.

victor

[tehachapifan]

Wonder why people have completely different experiences with this as well as track cleaning. Not wanting to open up the track cleaning can-o-worms here but, with track cleaning, I firmly believe that weather and humidity play a big part in individual results. Wonder if the same holds true with loco lubing too. My (admittedly few) experiences over the years with lubing electrical contact points has resulted in a "never again!" conclusion. But, as I stated, I may not have used the best products for this (although some of the ones mentioned above and/or in that other thread look pretty darn familiar).

As far as axle point and cup wear goes, that would be very bad but I still run locos from the 90's that run great (including ones that I had to clean lubricant back out of the cups to get running well again, grumbling "never again" in the process). So, if I had to chose between;

a) great electrical pickup for a reasonable amount of time but eventually resulting in the need to replace axles or contacts (which I am yet to have to do), vs;
b) so-so electrical pickup but much longer parts life,

I would probably go for the former BASED ON MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE and my hatred of flickering headlights and stuttering locos. However, the picture of the worn axle points in that photo is extremely alarming given the time frame mentioned. I've never seen or heard of, let alone experienced anything like that before to that extreme.

...I should mention I do lube my locos periodically, but I limit it to a tiny amount of gear oil (if extremely dry and noisy) and a tiny amount of lite oil at motor bushings and worm blocks if things start to squeal. I've been steering clear of the contact points for the reasons cited, but would love to find something that does not reduce conductivity in the least, whatsoever.

[victor miranda]

yeah, I wonder also.

I have a few clues.  and they are not answers.

there seem to be different products with very similar names...
varying cleaning techniques...

different materials in construction and various construction designs.
... which may vary in what products will give best results.

Btw, I went looking for 'bulb grease'
I got a wide selection of product/packages.

When I get the chance... I'll read the package I have.

I know that something called Di-electric tune-up grease is NOT bulb grease.
so I think I would avoid 'di-electric' in the product name.
(If I ever need to go looking... my little package has lasted me a long time)

I have not found the package I use.

victor

[peteski]

you never listened.

I listened, but never heard anything that answered the very specific and to the point question I was asking. But that is nothing new - you speak oranges and I hear broccoli....  I guess my brain has a hard time deciphering riddles. 

Russ:  I venture a guess that 99% of N scale locomotives have some sort of lubricant in the axle bearings of their trucks and we don't hear all the owners of those models complaining that their models run crappy.  I'm not sure why you had such a bad experience with lubricants.

But I also realize that you seem to be doing more than average of very slow running of your models.  N scale models (more so than any larger scale), need impeccably clean track, wheels, and all the electrical contact points to be able to reliably run on slow speeds.

[victor miranda]

I listened, but never heard anything .....

I got to that point and I started laughing....
thank you for the deep belly laugh.

[tehachapifan]

....Russ:  I venture a guess that 99% of N scale locomotives have some sort of lubricant in the axle bearings of their trucks and we don't hear all the owners of those models complaining that their models run crappy.  I'm not sure why you had such a bad experience with lubricants.

But I also realize that you seem to be doing more than average of very slow running of your models.  N scale models (more so than any larger scale), need impeccably clean track, wheels, and all the electrical contact points to be able to reliably run on slow speeds.

Thanks, Peteski. Yes, I do a lot of slow running on my branch line but I let the ponies run on my double track mainline. I do keep my wheels and track clean and am now a proud member of the No-OX-ID club for track cleaning (or lack thereof now!).

Interesting percentage estimate of people who lube the axle cups on their locos. I would have guessed the exact opposite!

[peteski]

Thanks, Peteski. Yes, I do a lot of slow running on my branch line but I let the ponies run on my double track mainline. I do keep my wheels and track clean and am now a proud member of the No-OX-ID club for track cleaning (or lack thereof now!).

Interesting percentage estimate of people who lube the axle cups on their locos. I would have guessed the exact opposite!

Russ: I didn't say that 99% of modelers lube their axle cups (that sounds a bit weird).  Models are are lubricated at the factory.  Some of the Atlas locos I have taken out of the box for the first time (newly purchased) were oozing oil and grease.  It was so much that it actually leaked out onto the outside of the locos shell!

Victor: You welcome!  I fully expected that you would enjoy that. You also amused me by carefully taking a part of of my sentence to reinforce your viewpoint.  Sort of like politicians often take out-of-context parts of their opponents statements in order to discredit that opponent.  Fun stuff!

[victor miranda]

Thanks, Peteski. Yes, I do a lot of slow running on my branch line but I let the ponies run on my double track mainline. I do keep my wheels and track clean and am now a proud member of the No-OX-ID club for track cleaning (or lack thereof now!).

Interesting percentage estimate of people who lube the axle cups on their locos. I would have guessed the exact opposite!

you use no-ox-id on your track and it gives you reliable, no-need-to-clean, service
and
you didn't try it on the contact points in your loco?   I am surprised...

Today I was reading about various products and the description of no-ox-id is very similar
to what Atlas puts in their brass axle cups.


uh peteski,
I shared the joke.  the rest of your post .... I have tried to answer in various ways.
tired of trying.  Would not have said anything if you had not made me laugh.

victor

[peteski]

uh peteski,
I shared the joke.  the rest of your post .... I have tried to answer in various ways.
tired of trying.  Would not have said anything if you had not made me laugh.

It is all good Victor.  We both had a good laugh.

[tehachapifan]

you use no-ox-id on your track and it gives you reliable, no-need-to-clean, service
and
you didn't try it on the contact points in your loco?   I am surprised...

Today I was reading about various products and the description of no-ox-id is very similar
to what Atlas puts in their brass axle cups....

Actually, I have used the No-OX on the contact points of the loco that is the subject of the original posting. That said, it still requires a nudge about half the time it changes directions. However, I never considered No-OX as a lubricant/grease for axle cups, etc. To clean track with it you use it more like a polish by wiping all the excess off.

[peteski]

There are several versions of No-OX. If this is the stuff you used http://www.sanchem.com/docs/NO-OX-ID%20A-Special%20Electrical%20Grade.pdf  then it is:
The purpose of a electrical contact lubricant is to prevent corrosion and lubricate the connection for easier maintenance. NO-OX-ID "A-Special" electrical grease prevents corrosion attack on all metal surfaces.

As far as nudging goes, if the track is not perfectly flat (but slightly warped from side to side) there is a possibility that the electrical contact between the truck and chassis is lost and no matter how clean everything is, it will still require nudging. That is why the newer locos use springy contacts to the trucks. I realise that you said that you tried installing springy contacts yourself, but without seeing exactly how that was done it is hard to say how reliable they were.

Even the Bachmann 44-tonner has springy contacts between the trucks and the frame.  In hindsight, that early Kato design was far from ideal (but in its day was considered better than most other models).

[tehachapifan]

I have the Bar Mills version of No-OX-ID, which I don't believe says anything about being used as a conductive grease. I realize that's sorta what's happening when you apply it to track but you wipe off all the excess off the track after you apply it.

Last night I spent a few hours messing with the trucks by taking them back apart and reassembling them. I noticed that the two-piece metal truck towers on both trucks was not sitting square and even and both halves of the tower were cambered inward towards each other at the top. This wasn't enough to pinch the top gear but it was enough to affect how well that top portion seated inside the chassis, which would affect electrical contact. One truck was so bad it would easily fall out of the chassis. Part of the reason these were cambered so much is I cut off the stock sideframes and glued on some resin aftermarket frames and didn't initially notice they were putting too much pressure on the truck tower halves. After some careful filing and chiseling at these pressure points, the tower halves sit nice and square to each other. Problem solved? No. Improved? Yes. Still need to nudge the loco about 30% of the time when changing directions now. While an improvement, I want even more. Today I will be trying to improve my recent attempt to add contact springs.

[victor miranda]

Hi tehachapifan,

I've been thinking about your problem.
I have an rs-something chassis by Kato
If that is similar, You may want to start with a simple idea.

just get everything clean. (we'll all oils and ointments later...)
and see if you can get the stall to stop.

what I want to do is make sure you have an electrical stall
it is very likely that is the case. if you have a VOM
watch the current if you can.

once the trucks slide over and if it stalls is there still current flowing?
I know we assume electrical, and as you have to nudge it, I tend to think electrical.
It may be jammed... somehow.

since none of the usual electrical fixes are working, we may want to make certain.

[tehachapifan]

Thanks Victor. We must have posted at the exact same time! I am virtually certain this is a loss of electrical contact that existed both when it was a DC loco and now on DCC. While I don't have a VOM, I have installed a headlight to the DCC circuit and when the need for the nudge arises (again, this only happens when changing directions), the headlight goes out too. Once nudged the loco will run quite nicely at a fairly slow speed without hardly ever stalling again until another change of direction. I would seem a mechanical jamb of some type would not affect the headlight and would also manifest in some way as the loco is running along.

...an interesting thing about the change-of-direction stall is that it will start going for about one second in the opposite direction and then stop. I thought about a bad motor pole but I can stop and start it several times over so long as the direction does not change. Still think that the somewhat loosely fitting trucks that shift back and forth when changing directions causes a brief mechanical separation of electrical contacts between the trucks and frame. Either that or the axles shift from one side to the other due to the torque(?) and briefly lose contact somewhere in the process....or both....or neither.