The Kato FEF can sure find problems with your (my) track laying skills!

[Bart1701]

Help me validate my assumptions, and come up with some good ideas to remedy my problem!

I just got my Kato FEF equipped with the TCS decoder. (I haven’t yet experienced the issues others are experiencing with the decoder since I can’t get my locomotive to make it around my entire layout yet – but I am eagerly awaiting this, as well!  )

My layout is on two hollow-core doors connected by a “bridge” section between them. (it’s basically a U-shaped layout). The hollow-core doors limited me to track radii that ranged between 11” to 18” – so I am meeting the minimum 11” radius for the FEF.

In several spots (all on curves) the locomotive derails consistently.

Since the radii are all 11” or more (I have double-checked them), I am assuming that the outer rail on the curve must be lower than the inner rail. I am using Code 80 track. Since the depth of the flanges are so shallow on the FEF, I suspect that the flanges are not in contact with the outer rail at some places on the curve; so, there is nothing to help guide the locomotive through the curve and it keeps going in the last direction it was pointed in and it derails. I hope that makes sense!

So, what does everyone think? Is my assumption valid, or is there something else I should be looking for.

If the issue is that the outer rail is lower than the inner rail – what are some solutions?
•   Pull up that track and re-lay it? Being very careful to try to keep it level and be sure that the track stays in gauge?
•   Put some shims under the outer rail to raise it up?
•   Retire from model railroading?

Is there any inexpensive “digital” level out there that might help identify what part(s) of a curve don’t have the two rails level with each other?

Hopefully my explanation of my problem is sufficient to start generating some possible solutions from all of you!

Thanks,
Bart

[superturbine]

I had to relay a curve due to the FEF being the only engine of all the engines ( including numerous brass engine) finding a spot on the layout to derail.  I have not had a chance to measure but, I think the width of the tires are actually less wide than other engine.  Someone please measure.

With that fixed, the engine is perfect.... but I found it rather strange.

[mark.hinds]

FWIW, my suggested trouble-shooting procedure would be:

1)  If you are using commercial track, it seems to me to be unlikely that one rail is higher than the other. IMHO, if your track laying technique is that bad, then you would be seeing other problems in addition.

2)  Carefully examine the track at the points where it derails.  Perhaps you have kinks which cause the effective radius to be less than 11”.  If so, fix this.  BTW, how are you confirming the 11” radius? 

3)  If you can get close enough to the trouble spot, illuminate it with temporary lighting, and examine the behavior of the drivers while the locomotive is being run at slow speed. Do this under magnification, if necessary.

4)  Wait until someone who actually owns this locomotive posts something.  I only own SP Northerns, and don't have any 11” radius track except possibly through certain turnouts.

Happy New Year 

MH

(EDIT:  Removed advice to push engine by hand, due to claim by later posters that this would damage traction tires.  I removed the traction tires on my Con-Cor GS-4.)

[rsn48]

I use SD90's to find problems in my track and I suspect you have found your engine to discover problem areas.  I'm willing to bet you have very slight kinks, almost invisible to spot.  What I do is hand push my engine around the layout and it will definitely hesitate at problem areas, its quite noticeable, why I like SD90's.

My suggestion is push your engine around the track, you don't even have to look at it as it travels, but instead pay more attention to how it feels in your hand.  Turnouts are a common location for ever so slight kinks.

[jdcolombo]

I know the previous posters were trying to be helpful, but . . .

DO NOT PUSH THE FEF AROUND YOUR TRACK!

It has traction tires.  Pushing it around the track is a 100%-sure way to destroy the traction tires. 

The best suggestion is to run the loco at the slowest speed possible and watch the drivers/pilot on the trouble spots.

I'd be willing to bet that what has happened is that the gauge of the track has narrowed or expanded (most likely narrowed) at the specific derailment spot.  Use an NMRA track gauge to check the gauge.  Don't have one?  Get one.  They are indispensable for model rr track work, checking wheel gauge, etc.

And you should also check the wheel gauge with the NMRA gauge.  Mine were all right on, but it's easy for a wheel (particularly the pilot truck wheels) to be shipped out-of-gauge. 

John C.

[Jeff AKA St0rm]

Didn't see the post above.

DO NOT PUSH THE FEF it will throw the traction tire. It sounds like your curve is out of gage. Have a look with your track gage and see. It sounds like the gage it tight causing the wheels to climb out of the track. Because the 4 drivers are rigid they are more sensitive to small problems that other locos will run over.

[peteski]

DO NOT PUSH THE FEF ON THE TRACK. Yes, I know I'm repeating it for the 3rd time. Don't do it.

[rsn48]

My bad, I'm the only one I know who doesn't own an N scale steam engine so I don't think about such issues as traction tires.  If you have an SD90 push it around, mine probably has a mile on it with all the pushing I have done.

[peteski]

My bad, I'm the only one I know who doesn't own an N scale steam engine so I don't think about such issues as traction tires.  If you have an SD90 push it around, mine probably has a mile on it with all the pushing I have done.

Actually pushing any N scale loco equipped with a traction tire might throw or damage the tire.  But traction tires on U.S. prototype diesel locos are very rare nowadays.  Problem is exacerbated if the loco has large diameter traction tire drivers (like a large steam loco).  Those tires will come off even easier than the ones on small diameter wheels.

[mmagliaro]

+1 on checking the driver and track gauge with an nmra plate. If it's Atlas code 80, there is a strong chance that the track gauge is narrow on those curves. Happens all the time and that code 80 flex is very susceptible to this if you have the sliding rail in the inside of the curve. Long wheelbase steam will get "squeezed in between the rails, and then climb right up and out, and off the track.

Regarding another comment about the rails being level...it is easier than you think to have one rail lower than the other unless you are putting track down on a flat sheet of plywood.

[up1950s]

Is there any inexpensive “digital” level out there that might help identify what part(s) of a curve don’t have the two rails level with each other?

I have one of these , love it . It's the

http://www.micromark.com/miniature-digital-level,9409.html

[woodone]

What kind of track are you using? Sectional-Flex or maybe Kato?
I would look to see if the derailment happens at the same place each time. Maybe you have a connection that happens to be out of gauge or the rail jointer is not making good alignment.

[alhoop]

If you are using code 80 flex you could have the problem of having the movable rail on the inside of the curve thus
possibly narrowing the gauge( as stated above by Max).
I had this problem on one section of track where it curved both ways and solved the narrow gauge thus:
Use an old Kadee/MicroTrains coupler height gauge - place the track spacing slots on the selected piece
of flex -rotate the gauge until it is hard to move and pull it through the curve maintaining tension between
the gauge and the track. This will remove a microscopic layer of metal from both rails and after what seems
an eternity the narrow gauge problem will be solved.
The newer M/T gauges seem to be made of different metal and may not be hard enough to do this.
Al
PS
Have also used a small course stone like this - just have to be careful not to remove the small nubs(spikes) that
hold the rail or the gauge will go all awry. Vacuum throughly after using either method!!!

[Nato]

         Yes the 844/8444 will find track problems. Mine causes shorting problems on two bridges on both my Red and Yellow mainlines.The weight of the locomotive causes the carefully resistance sodered (done by Bob Gilmore 3985) joints at one end of both bridges to shift ot sag just enough to short out one section of track and the bridge, on both lines. All other trains both steam and diesel run through just fine. My FEF runs just fine on the rest of the layout, it is DCC , but running on a DC layout with Code 80 track. Nate Goodman (Nato).

[peteski]

         Yes the 844/8444 will find track problems. Mine causes shorting problems on two bridges on both my Red and Yellow mainlines.The weight of the locomotive causes the carefully resistance sodered (done by Bob Gilmore 3985) joints at one end of both bridges to shift ot sag just enough to short out one section of track and the bridge, on both lines. All other trains both steam and diesel run through just fine. My FEF runs just fine on the rest of the layout, it is DCC , but running on a DC layout with Code 80 track. Nate Goodman (Nato).

Um, how can there be a short on a straight piece of track (no crossings or turnouts)?!  Do you mean it causes open circuit (and the loco stalls)?  It is an opposite of a short (like a night to a day).  If that is the case then obviously the solder joint is no longer solid.