Killashandra - Irish Nn3

[VonRyan]

I'm still not sold on version 2.
I would have to carve away the tail of the hill at that end.

Keep in mind that with version 3, I would be carving the road into parts of the hill like I did for the start of the road in the one hill on the edge of the layout, then smooth out the contours with sculptamold.
Where the road cuts across the center hill, I would carve it to look more like a natural cut since really the side of the hill along the river is/was intended to be a continuous slope down into the river.


-Cody Fisher

[packers#1]

The problem with version 3 is that it breaks the barrier; it's not so much that you're carving the hill as it is you can see from side to side of the layout. I wouldn't worry about carving the tail of the hill, as you could use a small stone wall to retain the hillside. And as has been mentioned, with a few trees the driveway and road will be separated.

[Chris333]

Is this what the cattle dock would look like?
http://locoyard.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/alresford-station-cattle-dock.jpg

Trying to envision it.

[DKS]

The problem with version 3 is that it breaks the barrier; it's not so much that you're carving the hill as it is you can see from side to side of the layout. I wouldn't worry about carving the tail of the hill, as you could use a small stone wall to retain the hillside. And as has been mentioned, with a few trees the driveway and road will be separated.

This. Again.

[Chris333]

Another cattle dock here:
http://howesmodels.co.uk/product/Scenecraft%20Highley%20station%20cattle%20dock

[VonRyan]

Is this what the cattle dock would look like?
http://locoyard.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/alresford-station-cattle-dock.jpg

Trying to envision it.

Yep that's basically it. Just the one I'll be building will be more beat-up and less finely constructed.

The problem with version 3 is that it breaks the barrier; it's not so much that you're carving the hill as it is you can see from side to side of the layout. I wouldn't worry about carving the tail of the hill, as you could use a small stone wall to retain the hillside. And as has been mentioned, with a few trees the driveway and road will be separated.

Ohhhhh.
Now I see what y'all been saying.

I'm working off the vision in my head where the river-side of the center hill is one continuous, uninterrupted slope.
Which is why version 3 makes the most sense to me.
Plus, having the road not go along the river separates the river scene from the cattle-dock scene, the two main scenes on the layout, and it also makes the scene where the road parallels the track unconnected from the river scene.
Plus since I plan to either be towering over the layout (viewing the entire layout) or have it at eye level (viewing one of the two main scenes) I would think that a little carving through the center hill wouldn't be all too bad.

To me, having an entire lane for the cattle dock makes things a bit less relaxed than I envisioned.
Plus having the road follow the river would connect the three scene together, when it makes more sense to have each one be separate.
With such a small layout, it just seems like the scenes should be "separated" to make the layout appear larger.


I don't know. Maybe I'm just not thinking properly?
In effect, this is only my 2nd real layout.


-Cody Fisher

[DKS]

...having the road not go along the river separates the river scene from the cattle-dock scene...

The cattle dock is still separated from the river with the road following the river. In fact, it's separated better than having the road cross over the middle of the hill--which, in effect, undesirably links all of the scenes together more effectively than separates them.

...having an entire lane for the cattle dock makes things a bit less relaxed than I envisioned.

The "entire lane" would be all of a few inches. Can't see how that would "unrelax" the layout.

With such a small layout, it just seems like the scenes should be "separated" to make the layout appear larger.

Exactly. And your version 3 defeats this purpose by having the road cross your one and only visual barrier, allowing a line of sight opening between the two sides of the layout.

Let's take a look at how to expand the visual size of, and create separate scenes on, a small layout (as a builder of many micro layouts, I do kinda know what to do )...



Assumption: there would pretty much be trees everywhere there is open ground--I only rendered the important ones. Also, be sure to study the greenery in this region: it's very thick and verdant.

First, the swath of trees along the hilltop effectively splits the layout into two parts. The road following the river is not straight, so there is no line of sight from one side of the layout to the other along the road, and the cattle pen driveway is isolated from the road so it's not overwhelmed. The road is also subtly separated from the river, so the river more or less remains a scene of its own. The two ends of the road cannot be seen at once from any angle, so it doesn't lose its ability to visually lengthen the layout. So, now you have the river scene, the road scene, and the cattle pen scene, all isolated from one another so as to expand the visual space.

As they say, it's your layout, so you need to follow your vision. I'm just trying to help.

[packers#1]

Another thing is the layout will actually feel MORE relaxed if the cattle pen has its own small drive; having it right off the main road makes it seem front and center, while having the small road to it from the main road will have the pen feel like it's off from the main hustle and bustle and be more relaxed and rural

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I think you're trying to fit too much in here.

On that last version, the "pad" next to the cattle doc looks barely big enough for a cow.

[DKS]

On that last version, the "pad" next to the cattle doc looks barely big enough for a cow.

The cattle docks ain't that big...

[timgill]

FWIW, I vote for the most recent DKS rendition. To create the "relaxed" feel that you are going for on a layout of this size, it's important to divide the layout into separate, distinct scenes that create the impression of distance. The way the eye is drawn through the different lines of sight help the mind expand the space, making the layout seem much larger than it actually is.

The extra lane to the cattle pen, while adding an extra element to the layout, actually relaxes the scene by creating that same impression of distance; at least, in my mind it does.

[VonRyan]

That's probably why I'm so confused.

To me, having the road run through all three scenes links them, where as not having it do so disconnects the three and makes them stand-alone elements, which (at least to my mind) creates a greater illusion of distance.

I'll have to sit down and give things a good look over and actually digest some of these responses before I start to make any decisions.

[DKS]

To me, having the road run through all three scenes links them, where as not having it do so disconnects the three and makes them stand-alone elements, which (at least to my mind) creates a greater illusion of distance.

I believe the problem you're having is that you are linking the three scenes in your mind through the logical connections the road makes; visually (assuming the scenery is properly executed), the scenes will all be distinct, whereas your Plan 3 ironically renders everything visually connected. You need to break away from the habit of looking at the track plan like a map, and instead thinking about what the road does by (mentally) viewing the layout from ground level and concerning yourself with only those things you can actually see.

If nothing else, consider what others think about the plan--a number of us are pretty much saying the same thing.

But... if you absolutely, positively must have the cattle dock on the same road or else, then for the love of N scale, don't cut through the hill; do this instead--



And if you want to spice things up, follow Chris' suggestion and run the road over the track on an old stone bridge at the lower left corner. The road should be elevated relative to the track grade along the cattle dock anyway--see the reference image I posted earlier--so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to keep it rising to meet the bridge. Perhaps something along these lines--

[Chris333]

Look at it like 2 separate sides.

[VonRyan]

I believe the problem you're having is that you are linking the three scenes in your mind through the logical connections the road makes; visually (assuming the scenery is properly executed), the scenes will all be distinct, whereas your Plan 3 ironically renders everything visually connected. You need to break away from the habit of looking at the track plan like a map, and instead thinking about what the road does by (mentally) viewing the layout from ground level and concerning yourself with only those things you can actually see.

If nothing else, consider what others think about the plan--a number of us are pretty much saying the same thing.

But... if you absolutely, positively must have the cattle dock on the same road or else, then for the love of N scale, don't cut through the hill; do this instead--



And if you want to spice things up, follow Chris' suggestion and run the road over the track on an old stone bridge at the lower left corner. The road should be elevated relative to the track grade along the cattle dock anyway--see the reference image I posted earlier--so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to keep it rising to meet the bridge. Perhaps something along these lines--

I'm ditching the bridge idea in favor of keeping the segment of the road paralleling the track.

And it's funny you mention looking at it like a map, because I keep thinking in context of eye-level viewing.
To me seeing the road in all three scenes makes them closer together, but by excluding the road from the river scene, it allow there to be more "distance" between them.

And they will actually be very few trees on the layout, since most of the area would be open grassy pasture.

Anyhow, I have a version #4 that came about this evening after a discussion with a friend, so hopefully that'll answer everyone's concerns.


-Cody Fisher