In pursuit of the perfect ATSF Ce-3 caboose

[wcfn100]

From Priest's book, they grab-bagged individual cars out of two different source classes in no particular pattern - the 500 and the 2201, the 500 having peaked roof and the 2201 having round roof.  The Priest shot of 621 sure looks like a round-roof to me, could be wrong, doesn't bother me as I have to really study end shots to figure it out anyway.

Nos. 2201-2300 all had peaked roofs. 


Jason

[jmlaboda]

I can't help but to wonder if the model could be improved by replacing the rivet detail with Archer Surface Transfers rivets... would they be smaller than what is on the model?  Would they be worth the effort if it would yield a better looking model overall?

[robert3985]

Nice effort on the hack.    I really like what you've done with the platform railings and ladders.

I'm sort of a caboose junkie...a UP caboose junkie, and there are some similarities between "builds" that really set cabooses off.

The first thing is to get rid of the N-scale coupler and put an MTL Z-scale coupler in its place.  That's a HUGE improvement and an easy thing to do.

The second thing to do is to add BLMA injection molded brake lines alongside the couplers.

The third thing to do is to find some .003" smooth thread or monofilament line (I use 000000 or 6-ought black suture silk) to run braces for your smokejack.  Drill a couple of holes in the proper place on the roof in front and back of the smokejack (I use a .007" bit), tie a big knot on one end of the piece of suture silk and insert the non-knotted end through the hole from the inside to the outside of the roof, run it over the top of your smokejack and down through the other hole.  Tighten it, then hit both the knotted end and the end you're holding tight with a bit of gap filling CA, then set it off with a small squirt of Accelerator.  Hold until it's hard, then cut the excess off.  Touch the part of the suture silk that's touching the top of the smokejack with a tiny bit of matte medium so it never slips off.  VOILA...smokejack brace!

Lastly, BLMA or Fox Valley narrow tired, lo-pro wheelsets get rid of an obvious N-gauge marker, and will leave people wondering what scale your caboose is.

Here's a photo of one of my superdetailed, kitbashed UP CA-1's (bashed from two MTL "Wood" cabooses, GMM Heavyweight Stirrups and Panamint Models "Q" trucks) in the post 1949 Armour Yellow scheme.   Notice the smokejack brace, MTL Z-scale coupier and BLMA brake hoses and Fox Valley LoPro narrow tired wheelsets.  Nice final touches IMO.

[wcfn100]

Turns out there's a Ce-3 down in Fountain.

http://goo.gl/maps/CyuAE

If there's anything you could use some info on, let me know.

Jason

[robert3985]

I had an inquiry as to where to purchase non-sterile suture silk, and luckily I'd bookmarked the site.  You can get it here: https://www.harvardapparatus.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=11051&langId=-1&division=HAI&pageId=ProductDetail&productId=43051&parent_category_rn=&top_category=&breadcrumb_trail=&breadcrumb_categoryIds=&isDoc=  but you have to create an account.

Price is $22 for a wooden spool with 75 feet of 6-0 (six-ought) black suture silk that is .08mm (.003") in diameter.  My spool has lasted me for 20 years.

[LV LOU]

I had an inquiry as to where to purchase non-sterile suture silk, and luckily I'd bookmarked the site.  You can get it here: https://www.harvardapparatus.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=11051&langId=-1&division=HAI&pageId=ProductDetail&productId=43051&parent_category_rn=&top_category=&breadcrumb_trail=&breadcrumb_categoryIds=&isDoc=  but you have to create an account.

Price is $22 for a wooden spool with 75 feet of 6-0 (six-ought) black suture silk that is .08mm (.003") in diameter.  My spool has lasted me for 20 years.

Better yet,look for Lipton "Pyramid Tea".. The bags are a super fine plastic mesh,shaped like a triangle.You can use the bag,and still use the mesh,It doesn't get stained or mucky,so if you drink tea,it costs nothing..

[peteski]

To revisit the "window thing" I mentioned earlier, yes, the horizontal divider (which is not really a mullion or even a muntin) is rather thick on the real caboose. But the real caboose's glazing it practically flush with with the body, where in the model it is inset, by probably about 6 scale inches. That, along with the thick inset frame around each pane is what changes the look of the model.

[robert3985]

Better yet,look for Lipton "Pyramid Tea".. The bags are a super fine plastic mesh,shaped like a triangle.You can use the bag,and still use the mesh,It doesn't get stained or mucky,so if you drink tea,it costs nothing..

Only "better" if you're looking for "free".  I bought mine to construct ratlines on 1/8" scale museum-quality scratch-built sailing ship models.  Used teabag material wouldn't cut it on a $38,000 1850's New York Clipper model.  When I spend 20 hours building my kit-bashed caboose models, it wouldn't cut it there either.

I have a spool of .002" stainless wire that I used to use for bracing, but after a while, it stretches and sags.  I've found that monofilament fishing line also stretches and sags if you don't pull it really tight before you glue it.  So, the "best" material for near-scale cable bracing, is the suture silk, which is already black (doesn't need a layer of paint), is braided so there's no stray fuzziness sticking out, is dimensionally stable, and will last virtually forever in a layout environment. 

Also, for other applications, such as rigging the cables on derricks, it's long and flexible enough to do the job just right, and it can be purchased in exact diameters so your model cable diameters are spot-on.

[randgust]

I'm glad you guys are having fun with this, and Bob, that's one impressive UP hack. 

I'd put wire smokejack supports on my previous Trix builds and decided they just weren't visible enough to bother with on this.   I'll take closeup photos because I can, but if you go back to my first post, ... this is intended to be an operating, not a display, model.  So not only will it be equipped with the best operating features I can find, it will also have a custom lighting package..    I'm a whole lot more concerned with how well the lighting works, the couplers work, and will stand up to pushing 25 cars without derailing than rivet sizes, or even roof profile.  It's a pickup, not a show car.

By the way, has any "Santa Fe" caboose EVER been made with the right peaked roof for certain classes?  I know Bob Knight was working on one in brass before the Centralia model came out, and once it came out, he shut down the project.  The Trainman caboose is round-roofed and also has the wrong-wheelbase frame; the only stock cars that have the trucks where they belong are the Trix and the IM/Centralia.  The various AHM/Bachmann cabooses are a CN-style hack, other than cupola position and wheelbase nothing else is close.  I've been through Spook's database and if it's in there, I sure don't see it.

Focusing back on what matters to me... post-paint testing revealed several flaws.  The 'new' MT2004 couplers just don't work right.  They're a lot bigger than the older knuckles, size doesn't bug me (although they are just too big) but they don't open on uncoupling magnets properly and thow over to delay... they consistently hang.  So off they went, replaced with conventional body mounts, even though those run low, but they work.  Those worked great, switched all last night with it and it's pretty flawless....almost.   If I can work these as they should be worked - absolutely not touching the layout and working the entire local using magnets and delay, that's the 'pass' test here.    Picks are for guitars, I don't even own one; reaching into the layout is an invitation to destroy something like light poles or other detail.   Oh, and I like Z's, use them on all my small steam.  Just not here, the magnetic performance is too erratic.

That led to problem #2, those couplers have the worst 'slinky' problem of any of them, and this is now one free-rolling car.  Too free-rolling, it had to come off again and have a drag spring put in it on one axle.   That's better.

The lighting package on this thing is just phenomenal and as much fun as anything.   Remember I'm DC; so it's polarity-sensitive on direction, with an integrated circuit and a medium-sized capacitor on a board that is the full length of the inside of the caboose.   There are two red marker LED's under the roof ends, so that the LED is lit on whatever end of the car is trailing at the time.   Those are surface-mounted LED's in scratchbuilt housings.    And there are four surface-mounted LED's for interior car lighting as well.   Works great, but if you could see through the windows all you could see is solid electronics.  When I studied my first photos I realized what looks like a lens is actually one of the power wires to the board behind it.

As the power comes up the proper LED powers up before the train even moves, and stays on, no flicker.   The car lights come on about the same time the train moves.   When you shut the power off, the LED stays lit the last direction the car moved for quite a while; we're talking about a minute.   If you hit the reversing switch, the LED that was lit dims out and goes dark as the opposite LED comes on.    Jim's done the Intermountain lighting packages as a stock item, but he hadn't done this tweak before, a bit of an experiment and a successful one.  Substitute white LED's in conventional markers and this could work for non-ATSF applications.

Jim wanted me to make some YouTube videos of the lighting, I'm working on it.

The principle of diminishing returns is alive and well with this one, tuning if for performance subjects it to more detail abuse, already knocked off one of the end ladders, having to retouch some paint, etc., etc.  Time to stop.   It's a lot easier to tinker with the Intermountains just riding along on the ends of trains, I don't expect them to perform like this one has to in constant switching service.  It's a LOT more reliable that the Trix rebuild it replaced, and now I'm down to only two remaining cabooses that remain to be replaced and upgraded.

[daniel_leavitt2000]

Randy, great effort but I'm here to ruin your night...

Life-Like made two ATSF style cabooses. The first one was essentially a copy of the Trix model. But that second caboose:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIFE-LIKE-SANTA-FE-CABOOSE-1943-N-SCALE-/350896638544?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item51b311ca50

The dimensions are more accurate, the rivets are about 60% smaller, and on par with the IM caboose. The whole caboose is very well tooled, on par with the NE style caboose. The end windows on the cupola have lower sashes that the Atlas models lack and MTL handrails are almost a direct fit.

My ideas on the vandal panels for the lower windows:
1. Translucent red brake light tape on clear styrene.
2. A very fine red dot pattern printed on transparency paper using a color laser printer.

[robert3985]

Randy, I think you got the screened window look just about perfect.    Nice lit up lights too.  Too bad that circuit board won't work on DCC since I converted over four years ago.

No magnets on my layout any more.  Rix Pix are da bomb.  However, back when I was experimenting with it, I got good result from MT Z scale couplers by bending the dongle down so it's got a straight section for a while then it curves closer to the track.  That worked as well as the stock N-scale dongles for me.

I agree that truly scale (.0015") braces are too small to be seen.  That's why I went with the .003" suture silk...it's both durable and visible.

Some roads only turned the lights on at night.  The 1950's UP was one of 'em, and so during the day, the lanterns were mounted on the rear, but they weren't lit.  For my prototype, MV lenses work just right since I don't  do night time ops.  My son, on the other hand, is a rabid SP freak, so I think it'd work well for his cabooses if it were DCC compatible.

However, for your ops and road, it's pretty cool what you've done!  Kudos to you.

[bbussey]

The low #1023 couplers are going to be a problem.  They won't operate properly either if not at the correct height, and (unless you add retarder springs to the axle points) the caboose will oscillate when the consist is moving forward because the #1023 spring is behind the pivot post instead of in front.  The knuckle head in your photo is not flared out as much as the current MTL coupler head, which means that's an older Kadee-era version without reverse draft angle and the coupler head will slide down under load.  You should try #2004 knuckles in the #1015 coupler box and see if that makes a difference.

[Nato]

             Randy, Yes a very nice caboose, I thought I heard the IM is planning to do an un rebuilt Santa Fe Caboose, in original mineral brown paint. If this is true I would certainly buy one. The Bachmann caboose with a peaked roof similar tooling to old Atlas and current Model Power  car while not entirely Santa Fe in the CE3 yellow cupola scheme it has been offered in (seems like forever) the car number, at least on the one I own is correct for CE 3 car that would have had a peaked, not round roof. I found that pretty amazing when I pulled out my book on Santa Fe Caboose' s published in the late 1980's when I bought the car, don't remember the author without digging the book out of storage.                                        Nate Goodman (Nato).

[robert3985]

I forgot to mention that I think that night time photo is verrrrry nice.  Looks like 1:1  Very nice indeed 

[randgust]

OK, so....

1)  It's a bumblebee, it's not supposed to fly, but it does, the 1023's are working just fine. That's why I'd put 2004's on to begin with (read the thread).  I was skeptical, but 'road trials' proved it wrong.  Nothing messes up theory like test results.  I was astounded when even the electromagnet couldn't yank a 2004 coupled to 1001 apart, just sat there under slack.  Head is too fat on the new 2004's.  1023's are already modified on the heads for RDA.  I may shim up the back of the box so that the heads don't droop, but as long as it's working.....it's at the risk of beating up the paint and detail one more time.
2)  Retarder springs are on it already, read the thread.  Yep, was a problem.
3)  ATSF at least ran the red markers all the time in the 70's  and Gulash videos show it, but it's a lot more focused beam.  It's so focused that if the caboose is bouncing around a bit it looks like it is flashing.
4)  That Life-Like car is interesting, definitely better rivets, right wheelbase, still round-roof... My 2000-class car is still a shell, not far enough along that I wouldn't go back and try one - thanks!  This car, right?  http://www.spookshow.net/freight/llchinastandard8.html
5)  Screens are already in, see the photo (and you can see the red glow in the night shot on the lower sashes)   As Krystal-Kleer comes out without much damage, I may still try something else, but its about where I want it for now.  The color and opacity is right, it's that 'flush' mount on the lower sash that remains on whether or not that's enough to actually bug me.  That's the tinted Krystal-Kleer.
6)  Look at the photo of the Life-Like one vs. the Bachmann one on the window patterns on both sides.  They paint it up like a Ce-3 (even the right car number) but it's another derivative; Spookshow says CN and I'll agree with that.  http://www.spookshow.net/freight/bachstandard6.html    I may not care about rivets, but the wrong number and location of windows are even where I draw the line!