What are the best materials for supporting a foam based layout.

[DKS]

There is no need to build a layout that doubles as a tornado shelter when working with N.

FTW

[sizemore]

IN 38 years of having a home n-scale layout, I have learned:1
1. I like a flat, zero grade surface.
2. I like to be able to revise the track plan with no change in the base material or bench work.
3. I enjoy detail scenery work and building kits or scratch building.
4. I build for portability.

I have the perfect solution! Both items meet all objectives!

http://www.brio.net/ToPlay/Railway/Railway_Sets.aspx

And to scritch that scratch building itch:

http://www.knex.com/Lincoln-Logs/

JUST KIDDING!


The S.

[Sokramiketes]

While I think there are some weight savings available to Bob, I appreciate where he's coming from in building good benchwork.  A good base tends to carry through into the rest of the modeling.  I've seen a lot of foam layouts (not just DKS) get pitched because the builder doesn't have an attachment to the layout, or it didn't survive the first rough handling. 

One of the things we rarely see on the forum is how well these layouts run.  Can you throw together a good looking diorama out of foam?  Sure can.  It might even run well to start.  But fast forward a couple years and the dips in the track where you set an elbow, or hokey switchmachine mounting causing failing switches, etc.  If you're not invested in a layout long term, then this is all fine.  Throw the damn thing out and start over.  Some people like building more than running.  And if this is your goal, then go quick and easy on the benchwork.

Others, and Bob and I are probably a lot alike in this regard, have visions of an ever expanding modular layout modeling a specific segment of prototype railroad. I can't build the whole Chicago to Milwaukee mainline in a year.  I can't even do it with 10 friends.  But in 15 years we can have a pretty good segment built.  And we'll take it to shows in the meantime to share progress.  But when I want the 15 year old module to match up to a new one, and run reliably at shows, then I'm going to try to build stable benchwork from the start.

Like anything, match the construction to your goal.  And understand that proponents of any system have their own view of what a layout is... permanent or temporary. 

[mcjaco]

I do seem to recall seeing an article where the person used metal studs the equivalent of a 2x4" x 8' stud used in construction for benchwork framing.

If that was the article in MR a few years back, that was my buddy's HO layout.  I helped with that.  The metal studs were lightweight, and easy to use.  It was great since his basement was a walkthrough the kitchen and living room from the garage where we cut the studs.

The layout is long gone, as Bill moved to a new home, but his site is still up:

http://kbhrr.com/layout/

[LV LOU]

Thinking that a larger scale needs sturdier benchwork is wrong-thinking.  Benchwork's purpose is to provide a stable platform upon which to build your trackage so that over time, and maybe during transporting it, your tracks will stay aligned so your trains will run reliably on them. 

So, lets say you construct spindly ultra lightweight benchwork for your N-scale layout and it warps enough to misalign a couple of rail joints by 1/8".  Oops!!  Your N-scale trains are gonna stop...badly.  Too bad about that substandard benchwork! 

I've used the same benchwork for twenty years now.My last railroad was fifteen years old,was as solid the day I took it down as it was the day I built it.Never once did I have any track issues..I start with solid 2" x 4' x 8' Styrofoam sheets as the base,then add second levels also with 2" foam.which overlaps any joints in the bottom level.The whole thing is glued together into a solid mass.There simply is no possible way for misalignment to occur,since I'm using a solid block of a substance that isn't affected in any way by moisture,heat,ETC.When I build,I design all tghe mountains to be removable,so I have access to the track underneath.My "benchwork" is nothing more than a table to hold up my RR,and if I ever do want to move it,the entire 12X12 can easily be divided with a saw or razor blade in a few minutes,and the few screws holding it down can be cut with a sawzall,the entire thing probably doesn't weigh 75 pounds with scenery.

[JoeD]

For those of us contemplating flat around the wall layouts like myself (Pacific Electric San Fernando Branch) another option is using Gaterboard or Gaterfoam http://www.foamboardsource.com/gatorfoams--gatorfoam.html.  I used this material for many years at Disney for the base of some huge models we produced.  Even did golf course models on the stuff.  It's very structural and unless you soak it in water, stands up to heavy landscaping.  It's not cheep, at about $125 for a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" material, but it goes a long way.  It cuts well on a table saw or if necessary, hand saw and I would cut strips to epoxy on the bottom for extra support for long narrow projects.  You can face the foam with wood or plastic trim, and if you need to cut in streams or whatever, a kraft knife works great.  Follow up with some 80 grit sandpaper to smooth things out and you are good to go.  I am leaning towards this material because I want to produce something that has a very thin facing profile, is portable for shows and easy to lug around.  For a layout going around three walls of a 9x9' room I have plenty of material for a 1' wide point to point layout supported on the wall by shelf brackets.   Just another option to consider.

Joe

[LV LOU]

While I think there are some weight savings available to Bob, I appreciate where he's coming from in building good benchwork.  A good base tends to carry through into the rest of the modeling.  I've seen a lot of foam layouts (not just DKS) get pitched because the builder doesn't have an attachment to the layout, or it didn't survive the first rough handling. 

One of the things we rarely see on the forum is how well these layouts run.  Can you throw together a good looking diorama out of foam?  Sure can.  It might even run well to start.  But fast forward a couple years and the dips in the track where you set an elbow, or hokey switchmachine mounting causing failing switches, etc.  If you're not invested in a layout long term, then this is all fine.  Throw the damn thing out and start over.  Some people like building more than running.  And if this is your goal, then go quick and easy on the benchwork.

Others, and Bob and I are probably a lot alike in this regard, have visions of an ever expanding modular layout modeling a specific segment of prototype railroad. I can't build the whole Chicago to Milwaukee mainline in a year.  I can't even do it with 10 friends.  But in 15 years we can have a pretty good segment built.  And we'll take it to shows in the meantime to share progress.  But when I want the 15 year old module to match up to a new one, and run reliably at shows, then I'm going to try to build stable benchwork from the start.

Like anything, match the construction to your goal.  And understand that proponents of any system have their own view of what a layout is... permanent or temporary.

Dips in the track from your elbow? What are you talking about? I'm a 60 year old,6 foot tall,close to 300 pound guy,I routinely pick myself up from the floor with my hand/elbow on the foam after looking for something under the platform,been doing that 20+ years,never had any such thing happen.At worst,the edge gets a little rounded,and I'm eventually going to run 1/8" Masonite right up the entire side of the RR so the edge of the foam is protected before I finish the scenery.
  My last all foam RR was 15 years old,the ONLY problem I had was crappy Atlas switches falling apart.My friends used to come to run it,you NEVER had to touch anything,just the walkaround throttle and switch buttons,I'd have to throw my friends out at 3 in the morning because they had so much fun.The only reason I didn't reuse it in my new house was that because I took it out of an odd shaped room,it simply wouldn't work in my new space.As far as switch machines,ETC,not holding up,if the correct adhesives,wood bases,ETC,are used,there simply are no problems.How well something lasts is a function of attention to detail..

[DKS]

For those of us contemplating flat around the wall layouts like myself (Pacific Electric San Fernando Branch) another option is using Gaterboard or Gaterfoam http://www.foamboardsource.com/gatorfoams--gatorfoam.html.  I used this material for many years at Disney for the base of some huge models we produced.  Even did golf course models on the stuff.  It's very structural and unless you soak it in water, stands up to heavy landscaping.  It's not cheep, at about $125 for a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" material, but it goes a long way.  It cuts well on a table saw or if necessary, hand saw and I would cut strips to epoxy on the bottom for extra support for long narrow projects.  You can face the foam with wood or plastic trim, and if you need to cut in streams or whatever, a kraft knife works great.  Follow up with some 80 grit sandpaper to smooth things out and you are good to go.  I am leaning towards this material because I want to produce something that has a very thin facing profile, is portable for shows and easy to lug around.  For a layout going around three walls of a 9x9' room I have plenty of material for a 1' wide point to point layout supported on the wall by shelf brackets.   Just another option to consider.

Joe

Likewise, I've been using Gatorfoam for many years; my last several layouts were built with it. With the exception of a basement-sized layout, where I'd use steel structural material topped with foam, I'll continue to use Gatorfoam for any future layout projects. My current layout is being built on a Gatorfoam base assembled like a shallow box to give me extra depth without using a lot of material. The box design also allows me to enclose things like switch machines and electronics, which can be accessed via openings on the underside.

Dips in the track from your elbow? What are you talking about?

Indeed. My all-foam WR&N IV lasted years with no issues, was run quite often--including a full non-stop day for an NMRA tour--with no issues. I even dropped a hammer on the layout from ceiling height, and all it did was make a tiny ding in the railhead (which would have happened regardless of benchwork type). If I didn't have to move, I fully expect that I'd still be enjoying the layout today.

I will add that it doesn't take a truckload of wood and a carpenter's workshop to produce really solid benchwork. The steel assembly I built was able to support the full weight of my body, yet the benchwork itself weighed a tiny fraction of its traditional L-girder counterpart, cost much less, and was mind-blowingly quick to assemble (not that I'm terminally impatient, but it's incredible to see a room filled with benchwork in an afternoon). Again, if I had a basement to fill, this is what I'd use.

[C855B]

For those of us contemplating flat around the wall layouts like myself (Pacific Electric San Fernando Branch) another option is using Gaterboard or Gaterfoam http://www.foamboardsource.com/gatorfoams--gatorfoam.html.

Yes! Even the 1/4" stuff is amazingly strong and very stiff. And light... featherweight! I'll agree on the "expensive", however - $55/a sheet for the 1/4" material from a local plastics company. I have a module under construction using Gatorboard as the top layer (over 4" of foam), and Gatorboard for the skyboard. Amazing material.

As Joe inferred, Gatorboard is designed for professional display makers, with ease of working and durability in mind. So thinking about it... what are we making? - displays. Hmm.

EDIT - David, what do you think about Gatorfoam for cookie-cutter work?

[DKS]

EDIT - David, what do you think about Gatorfoam for cookie-cutter work?

I've done it, albeit on a smaller scale--



I would say it's a great alternative to other materials, although I'd stick with the half-inch variety, and support it every several inches for added durability.

[rogergperkins]

Even though I was not ask, my opinion about use of extruded polystyrene foam as a base allows for option of redoing the track plan if a sold flat sheet is used.
The material can be laminated to create varied topography, and removed to create a stream or valley.
I am a zero grade modeler.  I model central Illinois which is quite flat in the area I model.

I am leaning toward use of a plywood box with cross pieces for support of a future layout.  It appears that 3" width of 1/2" thick plywood would give adequate support for the underframe.

[ednadolski]

There is no need to build a layout that doubles as a tornado shelter when working with N.

OTOH....

[JoeD]

Yea, David really used the advantage of Gator board on his layouts to it's best.  While it may be more expensive, I think in time savings and versatility it's a great option to old school wood construction for portable or smaller layouts.  He's correct, some sort of firm underlayment would be necessary for room size layouts.  I would think even considering this material for modular clubs could be a nice alternative to moving around 600 lbs of layout all the time.  Aluminum or smooth ply facings on the ends for joining would make secure joins and given most are 4' - 6' long, the material is plenty structural for the job.

Joe

[LV LOU]

Even though I was not ask, my opinion about use of extruded polystyrene foam as a base allows for option of redoing the track plan if a sold flat sheet is used.
The material can be laminated to create varied topography, and removed to create a stream or valley.
I am a zero grade modeler.  I model central Illinois which is quite flat in the area I model.

I am leaning toward use of a plywood box with cross pieces for support of a future layout.  It appears that 3" width of 1/2" thick plywood would give adequate support for the underframe.

Roger,on my mainlines,I never use any grades.My mains are dead flat,I even put adjusters on the legsto compensate for settling i the house to keep it dead level.Doing that,I can pull huge trains with minimum power.My average 2 unit lashup will handle 60 cars or more.I do have some grades,but they're only on branchlines where I would run shorter trains,and I'm usually controlling it with a walk around when it's being used.

[LV LOU]

I use a rather different method for making grades in foam.I cut out a solid piece for my second level in 2" foam,which is the perfect height for a second level.I then figure out where the grade will be,mark it,and cut it out with my foam scroll saw..[freehanded the flames,LOL!!!!]


 After I cut it out,I reinstall the whole piece,and glue down only the piece where the grade will be.I can then remove the main piece,and the grade is wide open to cut & sand for the grade.After I get it nice and straight,I put the main piece back,mark that,and cut in the contours from the top of the grade roadbed up..I glue the main piece back in,and finish easments,ETC..THis grade actually ended up much lower,I was still working on it in the pic..