Idaho Belt Freelanced plan

[LKOrailroad]

Have you considered using aluminum roll flashing? Readily available, inexpensive, comes on long rolls, smooth, doesn't warp. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Amerimax-Home-Products-14-in-x-50-ft-Aluminum-Valley-Flashing-68014/100015545#.UdLp-PnVB8E

[Philip H]

Anyone who has successfully used styrene sheet as a backdrop material care to share which thickness material you used and how you mounted it to the layout?

I've seen some folks using 0.040 and others 0.060. I was quoted $31 for 4x8 sheets of 0.060 which seems a bit steep to me. I should have gotten a quote for .040 thick pieces too. Have to give them a call back.

Given those tight quarters I think backdrops, especially for the lower deck, need to bump up the task list so I am not trying to wrestle the equivalent of N scale glaciers into place over trackwork on the downstairs scenes. I imagine the styrene would be about as destructive in places as ice sheets scraping the earth clean.

yes, if you intend to install backdrops do it early. 

As to Styrene, that price seams quite reasonable.  If you don't htink it will work in your budget, see if any of your local sign shops have either used styrene sheets or offcuts they will let you have.

[basementcalling]

Have you considered using aluminum roll flashing? Readily available, inexpensive, comes on long rolls, smooth, doesn't warp. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Amerimax-Home-Products-14-in-x-50-ft-Aluminum-Valley-Flashing-68014/100015545#.UdLp-PnVB8E

Allan, I looked at some the other day in Lowes. Nice, shiny, and pretty cheap. About 10 bucks for a fifty foot roll 10 inches high. I think I remember an article years ago in MR about how to use it as backdrop material. I've also seen where some guys use the back of linoleum flooring rolls similarly for backdrops, though I've heard of the linoleum stretching and becoming wavy over time.

My big concern with the flashing would be all those sharp metal edges. I "tested" an edge in the store and it was pretty sharp, but they may be less dangerous than the styrene solvents needed to glue that up.    Choices, choices.

You used Masonite on the LK&O, right? I think I remember seeing pictures on your blog with lots of taping and smoothing over seams and screw holes.

[LKOrailroad]

You used Masonite on the LK&O, right? I think I remember seeing pictures on your blog with lots of taping and smoothing over seams and screw holes.

Yeah, masonite and drywall screws. Used hardboard as if it was sheet rock - tape and mud. I am very satisfied with the results although it was by no means easy. Lots of mud and sanding to get everything as smooth and flat as I wanted it. Been in place for 2 years with no cracks, shrinkage, or otherwise odd things happening.

Regarding the aluminum edge, you could slice lengthwise vacuum tubing (or similar) to slide over the edge. Somewhat like is done with car door edging. Friction would hold it in place.

Roll flashing is what I used for my reflectors in the upper lighting valance. Real easy to work with, lightweight. There is a post about it here: http://www.lkorailroad.com/reflectors/

[basementcalling]

Yesterday and today have turned into find it and fix it days. A few things looked better on paper than plywood.

1. Double check helix radii for scenery room. One tight spot might force an exit curve that goes from hidden to visible from 21 inch radius down to 19 or 18. That or one rock face in the cut it emerges through to avoid a tunnel portal will be a very thin rock wall because a vertical support is nearby. (Aside, grades look really cool!)



Sometimes to get work done, improvisation saves the day. Who says steel shelf supports are no use?




2. Is a 24 inch square access hatch really large enough to be useful. If I can barely turn around in it with my arms down do I need to widen the space to protect scenery once it's in place? Haha What about 10 years from now?



3. One turnout seems very out of the way. If I have trouble reaching that spot to accurately place it while double checking the printed plan, how will I get to it for derailments (Of course I will have none of those.) or troubleshooting? Another access hatch may be required, though I would strongly prefer to keep all the complex trackwork within easy reach, but wye arrangements always seem to have one hard to reach leg.



4.  Lift out bridge spacing is 1/4 inch shorter than on previous layout. That makes it a slide out section, but it's nothing a good chop saw can't fix.

5. Speaking of which, the saw blade was smoking some 2x4 I had to rip in half. Maybe the blade is getting dull? Hmmm.



6. One corner of a scene was 1/4 inch too low. 12 screws removed, old leg used as a jack, screws reinserted into raised 1x4 cross members and a couple diagonal braces added to prevent the 18 inch wide benchwork from drooping at the front.



7. Screws are very hot to the touch immediately upon removal from good plywood.  Especially when they fall on feet partially exposed in flip flops.

8. Two supports under a complex junction needed moving so switch machine location would not be impeded.  Lesson, don't lengthen a support just to avoid going out in the rain to make a saw cut.

Before

After

[img]http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq108/ppfoten211/trains013.jpg">>


9. Roll under spacing works as planned. Horizontal clearance actually worked out 3 inches wider than planned. Pipe insulation installation will go forward as planned for vertical clearance protection for reasons not to be revealed.



10. Reengineering second deck support structure. Once a warped 2x3 stud, always a warped 2x3 stud. Plywood structural support pieces designed and cut. Hope to show more of this later today.

11. The spirit level is always right!

[LKOrailroad]

Screws are very hot to the touch immediately upon removal from good plywood.

I know, right? I can't seem to teach myself that lesson. Pulling 3" deck screws out of a fence section I was removing I must have grabbed 100 red hot screws. Each time, "ouch idiot, don't do that again". But what happened a few screws later?

[basementcalling]

Have you considered using aluminum roll flashing? Readily available, inexpensive, comes on long rolls, smooth, doesn't warp. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Amerimax-Home-Products-14-in-x-50-ft-Aluminum-Valley-Flashing-68014/100015545#.UdLp-PnVB8E

Alan, I looked at the flashing again and found this little gem.



14 inches tall and 50 feet long. They had white too, but only in 10 inch height. Not sure how paint, or photos, would stick to it. $26 for a roll.

[LKOrailroad]

ummmm... no so sure. Flexible vinyl has a tendency to get wavy over time. Especially if in direct sunlight.

[basementcalling]

ummmm... no so sure. Flexible vinyl has a tendency to get wavy over time. Especially if in direct sunlight.

I didn't buy any. Needs more research before I commit. Luckily, my basement window and sliding glass door are shielded from direct light by the deck upstairs. Wavy is definitely not good for a backdrop. It might have a different rate of thermal expansion than wood and shift shape from that as well. Plus, I have no idea what type of glue would successfully bond that stuff. It felt slick as snot.

Back to more hot screwing for a bit. One more correction to make.

[GaryHinshaw]

Lots of progress here, but I'm having a bit of trouble seeing the forest through the trees (so to speak).  Can you post some longer shots of the benchwork that we can more easily relate back to your track plan?

-Gary

[DKS]

Back to more hot screwing for a bit.

 

[basementcalling]

Lots of progress here, but I'm having a bit of trouble seeing the forest through the trees (so to speak).  Can you post some longer shots of the benchwork that we can more easily relate back to your track plan?

-Gary

Lots of trees being used, Gary, but no problem. Just be careful what you ask for because here is a tour up the Idaho Belt from Town 1 to Summit courtesy some crappy cell phone photos (Multi taking and trying to learn my new phone camera).

Edited to add photo locations on plan.

Lower Level



1. Lift Bridge. Here's the lift out section, which on the old layout had a lift bridge on it. Might not this time, but it lets me get outside into the back yard. Magnets underneath will be wired into track power to keep the rails energized. As I said, out of focus after a full day working on the railroad.



2. Town 1 Wye. The wye turnout in the background is a bit of a reach, so I might have to reconfigure this spot. Perhaps the 15 inch radius on the inner curve could be cut down a tad, but that might limit continuous run options when I am just in the mood to see trains run. Also, this is where the yard lead joins the main at the junction in the foreground. Not prototypical to have a yard lead cross a bridge, but I would rather have the yard operator able to pull an entire track than have a short lead.



3. Town 1 showing the plan for the interchange yard. Looking south you can see some of the upper deck in the distance where two of the three loops in this layout will coexist, one hidden on the lower level and one visible on the top deck, currently pink foam. Aisle here behind me pinches to 30 inches, but opens to 38  inches further down, and the other side of this aisle is all scenery so mainline operators will move through with trains. The track that exits the hidden helix, just past the end of town 1 where it will eventually be behind a view block from this vantage point, will continue to climb towards the paper mill town. The 2% grade in the helix will stiffen to 2.3%, toughest on the road. If trains make it from left to right here and can cross the trestle they will have no problems on Williams Loop or Summit hill itself. But most heavy manifest and unit trains will need helper sets.



4. Poor overview of the papermill location. It looks like 2 levels but the area in the distance on the foam will be the same height as the wood deck after the 1 loop hidden helix goes in and brings the main and passing siding level. Note the drop down section behind the stud wall for the river gorge crossing on a large deck girder trestle. Also note that without a backdrop, traffic on the Summit hill scene is barely visible in the background on the other side of the room.



Upper level photo locations.




5. Little better shot of some mill switching with a GP-15-1 as a home road (paint scheme to be determined) C44-9 drifts into view, probably with a priority perishable express. There will be reefers on this layout along with forest products, unit grain, and lots of manifest freights. The Idaho Belt is wary of the investment needed to really dive into intermodal, but some run through traffic will be inevitable with our fast routing from Canada to both LA and Gulf of Mexico ports via our run through agreements.



6. Meanwhile at the other end of town, a pair of SD40-2s are in the hole with the mill job waiting on an SD70 hauling auto racks to clear the north switch so they can get back to Spokane in time for dinner. The CP boxcar on the warehouse track is indicative of traffic sources on the Idaho Belt. This is the site of a Walthers Paper Mill kitbash based on a local mill I posted photos of in a backdrop thread.



7. After the paper mill, trains round the bend out of town and prepare for the summit assault. Here a helper set waits for a CP lead autorack train to get down the hill, and then will follow the racks back to the main yard, which I stayed out of because the railroad police had my favorite photo spot cordoned off. Something about a Catzilla sighting. The helper set is a pair of long toothed UP C units, including a very rare C36-7 kitbash. Another dang fuzzy photo. Another helper set waits to access the wye, and turn behind the auto racks, in the far distance. As the forest regrows this view will shorten up, but construction clear cut lots of timber here. The CP lead train is heading downhill and the far helper set is at Summit proper.



8. Traffic on Summit Hill can really back up, which is great for getting shots of big power working hard. These two SD90-43MACs are in full dynamic brake mode, keeping a long string of auto racks under the downhill speed limit. Uphill minimum speed is more of an issue, especially for unit grain and potash trains. Actually this is the top deck headed downhill from Summit in the distance. Elevation here will be slightly above eye level at 63-64 inches for the rails.



9. More heavy traffic on the hill. Luckily the rails follow the river here, so we can run to the top, throw the white water raft in and float down and stop to shoot every train from some unique angles. Actually, after testing a new upper deck mounting method here I am foolishly tempted to leave some sneak views from the town 1 side of this peninsula just for photo ops. The paper plan has already been modified so the summit siding will sit back a full 6 inches or more from the lower deck edge to make access in the 24 inch deep benchwork area easier. Might be kinda neat to see a river gorge climb scene from both sides of the river. I'll have to play with the engineering specs and see if the reduction in the grade and improved operations is worth the added expense. Probably some damn rare fish species in the river we would have to do an environmental impact study for. The boss would want to collect samples personally. I ought to be able to get some interesting low level shots of trains, but the foreground will expand out some where the CP engine is. No sense having one tumble 12 inches to the deck below.



10. One more shot of the auto racks as they drifted by. In the distance a mountain ridge will hide "Williams" Loop from view from here. It will have some forced perspective areas using a Bellina Drop technique to keep operators from looking down the peninsula and being right where Plummer Jct operators need to stand. This train will eventually head east from Ogden - which the IBRR accesses via trackage rights from UP - towards KCS territory. CP power turns for home at the main yard, however, and usually needs fuel topped off.



11. Meanwhile on the lower deck under the Summit Wye, the tracks to and from Plummer Jct pass in what will be a small valley. Tracks will be separated on grade and by a thick forest of evergreens. This short 6 foot peninsula that goes to the right connects to the top wall on the layout plan, and will feature a drop down gate to make access to the fuse panel easy. The fuse panel is visible in the photo of Cottonwood.



12. Looking west up this aisle we can see Plummer Jct, where a MRL unit waits for the UP crew to get it in gear and drop their one car.



13. Here is the large (but maybe not large enough) access hatch on the lower level at Plummer Jct. Tests show that a few more inches of width may be needed to make this hatch more useful. Luckily the framing below worked out so that is possible. This scene is at 48 inches in height, 12-15 below the recessed upper deck (No need to knock heads when the hatch is needed.) rail level. After the fascia is added, I should have 9-12 inches of clearance, but only 1 spot with track will have any of the upper deck directly overhead, and is where the drill sits. I added the hatch over concerns about accessing that curved turnout.




14. After Plummer Jct, the lower level tracks head around the bend on the outside of the hidden lower level helix (underneath Williams Loop up top). This area has 10 inches of rail to fascia clearance, but the lower deck only has 6 inches of visible scenery.  A backdrop will be pretty important here, but luckily the area in real life is small evergreen trees and one open field behind one abandoned building trackside. This shot shows the visible trackage on the printout, and you can see the helix subroadbed ramping up.



15. Here is the site of the Plummer stud mill. There is also a small oil dealer trackside still, but I've seen no evidence it is served by rail any longer. This scene is underneath an 18 inch wide upper deck, and I will likely shorten the depth here to 10-12 inches, as a good chunk of the planned mill buildings against the backdrop will be hidden if they are 14-18 inches back from the layout edge. The 2x3 is on the 12 inch deep line. I stepped back a bit to get the entire scene in the viewfinder. The view from close to the benchwork where I would stand if running the train cuts off before the backdrop is fully visible.

A UP local is ready to spot a pair of centerbeam flats for loading. Track to the left will go off to a cassette staging area under the 13 inch wide part of the paper mill on the top deck.



16. If we went east from Plummer Jct. we would reach this corner town based on Cottonwood, ID off the now abandoned Camas Prairie RR. Plans to access Cottonwood again are on hold, as this area may be better used to provide more sense of distance on the branch, and with helpers coming on and off many trains up top, this could be a busy alcove on the layout. I think there will be enough switching options for the branch trains with just the end of track town, which we ran out of daylight before getting to today. It's a day up and overnight trip for the crews, so that train will be there tomorrow.



17. After all that, we found a section crew out running the branch rails checking for rockslides and any other potential track problems.  This is on the lower deck on the top wall of the plan, and I like how the hi rail truck almost vanishes in the scene even without any hills or trees. The plan here is to fill the background with a steep hillside, trees in gullys and bare grass and rock on ridge tops, ala Lapwai Canyon on the Camas Prairie.




The lower deck seems best suited for wider viewing perspectives to play on N scale's whole scene potential, but upper deck views, especially near eye level, will be more close up. There is a big difference in seeing a layout this large after it's taken some substantial shape and how it looks on paper. I found a couple spots on my photo tour I had not visualized as being interesting views. Some will vanish as the hills and trees go in, but a couple are worth preserving.

But it's now after 1AM East Coast time, so I leave you night owls and west coast residents for the soft pillows of my bed, provided Catzilla hasn't already claimed them.

Thanks for taking the time to look and read, and an even bigger thank you if you take some time to leave your thoughts, suggestions, or cautions.

[basementcalling]

Lunch Update.

Upper deck work last night brought me to a spot where I have a question.

I'm using birch plywood 3/4 inch thick here, but I am not sure if this benchwork setup with support the upper deck on the peninsula above Plummer JCT well enough not to develop a warp.

The original plan used 2x3 atop the studs here, but as you can see it was already twisted and not usable in this spot.



The backup plan is evident above too. I put down a strip of 3/4 inch plywood I've had cut for a number of years for NTRAK module sides, so it's nice and dry now and shows no changes in shape. The difference in thickness though left me 3/4 of an inch short on the height I needed.

So I laid quality 1x2 wood runners on their side (Edge would be too high.) under the plywood top deck. This is a pretty complicated spot in my benchwork plan, with the top deck resting on the center stud support wall so it can overhang both sides of the peninsula. The backdrop will actually be off center and serve as backdrop and valence for the other side.

Here it is screwed and glued, but not yet mounted in position.



This is what it looks like this morning after sleeping on the change in design. It's merely clamped in place for now because I am not sure this is a good long term way to attach the top deck.



Here's a close up of the track plan in this area of the climb to summit.  I think all Ess curves are eliminated. As you can see, the top layer is not centered on the same line as the lower deck. The thick red line is the stud wall. The blue is backdrop/valence. Fascias are in red. Unfortunately the orientation of the plan is 180 off from the direction I took photos.



That allows clearance at one access hatch and for better views of the lower deck below, which is very wide to allow the wye and loop arrangement at Plummer Jct. It looks like this with everything in place temporarily.



So should I fill in the space between the runners with more plywood or try a different design altogether?

[GaryHinshaw]

Peter - one thing that is becoming abundantly clear: the two-deck freestanding peninsula is a very complex piece of engineering.   

I think I understand what you're proposing for the top deck but the last photo is throwing me off.  In your 3rd photo, the 1x2s are below the plywood deck and supporting it, but in your 4th photo I don't see them.   With 1x2s below deck, I think the scheme should work fine.  My only recommendation would be to line up the 1x2s with the vertical studs, so the weight is bearing more directly on the studs, not on the 3/4 ply between them.  Further, once you attach a fascia to the outside, that will provide further protection against warpage.

Thanks for the photo tour.  I think I have correlated every picture with the locations on your plan.  It took some study though!  This layout should provide plenty of operational interest.  I think I agree that omitting Cottonwood is plausible, but I don't think you really need to decide that until later.

Cheers,
Gary

[LKOrailroad]

I think your suspicions are correct. The supporting slats would be much stronger if rotated 90 degrees. As they are positioned now you are not taking advantage of the grain strength. Also, the unsupported plywood is just asking for trouble IMHO. Plywood is amazing stuff but not so amazing as to allow for improper engineering. Support everything, keep the grain perpendicular to the force being applied. Basic house framing techniques are the way they are for good reason.