Proto-lanced Pennsy: The West Slope

[DKS]

In an earlier draft, I included a siding that branched off of the line going into the tunnel at center right. It was there just to have some token bit of operation available as an option.

[chicken45]

I knew I should haven't checked the boards before bed.
I'm stunned that you chose Summerhill. Stunned. And Rt 160. I grew up on 160 in Salix and my folks still live there today.
Before I saw the Cresson wye, I thought it was South Fork.

I'd still like to get MG in there somewhere. Even on another door.

Dave, thanks so much for your help! I am very thankful that everyone is helping.

[Lemosteam]

OK, since there's nothing much left of Dave's Juniata, how about we start over with a (fairly) clean slate, pick some real locales, and fashion scenes around them, perhaps along these lines:



A future expansion at the top left would complete the wye at Cresson.

Dave I think that is brilliant.  I was talking to Josh about the grade up to Gallizin tunnel, and if it can get high enough to go over the mains inside the "mountain" he can use the mountain as a view block and when it comes out the other side, its downgrade to Horseshoe curve on a second HCD place in a "T".

[Lemosteam]

Thanks Eric, I think I'm going to make some molds.

The wall mold for the LIRR IS has lasted for over 120 castings and is what I used to make these, so I think I'll produces pairs of these.

[chicken45]

Yeah, John just mentioned that to me about the elevation.
Now that Cresson is in the picture, I'm wondering how helper service operations could possibly take part. I'd like to see those two tunnels lead to a grade, MG, and the Curve, but I don't know how that would work out.

[Dave V]

I dunno...  Pennsy kept grades under 2% on both sides of the hill, but I don't see how you can make that clearance at less than 3% starting where you do.  Will look like a mining branch and not America's Broad Way of Commerce.  Almost begs starting the branch where you have Cresson and having a grade separation through the curve.

[Lemosteam]

The grade only needs to barely clear the tallest car inside the mountan.  you could grade up 1" from summerhill to gallitzin and back down to summerhill.   You could put a curved turnout to gallitzin to get more length.  So a 60" run with 1.25" of rise should get close to 1.75" or more of clearance over the mains in the mountain at a 2.08% grade.
 

[davefoxx]

I dunno...  Pennsy kept grades under 2% on both sides of the hill, but I don't see how you can make that clearance at less than 3% starting where you do.  Will look like a mining branch and not America's Broad Way of Commerce.  Almost begs starting the branch where you have Cresson and having a grade separation through the curve.

In addition to the rise in the branch, you could also put a dip in the end of the loop under the branch.  By splitting some of the difference, you could lessen the severity of the grade on the branch.  Even if you only put a 1/2" to 3/4" dip in the loop, that will make a significant difference in the grade of the branch.

Now that I've been thinking about it, I did a similar rise on my Seaboard Central, but my rise was 2" in a run of approximately 72"-75".  That got me under 3%.  Your branch is not that long and if estimated at approximately 60" long would be about 3.33%.  Don't forget, you need to allow for thickness of the roadbed on the branch.

DFF

[DKS]

Don't forget, you need to allow for thickness of the roadbed on the branch.

Another trick is to span the space over the lower line with just track, no roadbed. That can buy you a little, and every bit counts.

[Lemosteam]

Dave, sometimes great minds (yours) and very mediocre minds (mine) think alike.      Put a skinny cut in the lower mountain and run the track right over top.  the track is definitely stiff enough for that little load.

Thanks for the compliment on the culvert BTW.

[chicken45]

I'm not sure how that graded line will hook up on the next door.

This is all just spit balling right now, but let's think about this:


So there were 4 tracks on the mainline. At Tunnlehill, it divided in to 1+1, and 2. The 1+1 boring west through the mountain as Gallitzin and Allegheny tunnels, the "2" being the eastbound double track New Portage Tunnel.

Gallitzin itself is a loop as the main line splits around it.

What's the grade of the line? Where was the summit? Was it all downhill from Gallitzin to Altoona?
When did Pennsy take the broadway down to 3 tracks?


Historically, there was an engine facility in Cresson, right? From what I recall, it serviced the helper engines from Altoona. Those helper engines turned around and went back to Altoona through New Portage Tunnel.
So that's a loop right there. Put another HCD on the east with a grade and model helper service, MG, and the Curve. But...how to make the track geometry work with that...The west bound line would have to cut through the center to have the tracks meet back up. 

It may be a bit too ambitious for such a small layout. At this point, there'll be two additional doors (Cresson on the west, MG and the curve to the ease). I can't say that's out of the question, but at that point I feel like I should start benchwork.

[kelticsylk]

Josh,
Those documents wouldn't go. I'll have to send them in smaller files. I'm also sending Track Charts. The charts are schematic and you may not be able to use them, but it'll give a good idea of how the trackage is laid out.

The loop at Gallitzin was for turning helpers from both slopes. If you look at the chart you posted you'll see each track in the loop is labeled "Conemaugh" and "Altoona". The engines were sent back down the hill moving forward because of speed requirements outlined in the Employees Timetable. Depending on class rules dictated they travel much slower in reverse. The larger locomotives were limited to 20-25 MPH in reverse, while they could travel at 40-50 mph running light forward. The speed limit on the east slope was 30-35 mph while 45 was the posted limit on the west slope. Running forward saved quite a bit of time.

I believe the helpers out of Altoona were serviced at SLOPE where they were turned on a turntable. I'm not sure how things were done coming up from Johnstown. I can find very little information other then photos.

[Bsklarski]

Another trick is to span the space over the lower line with just track, no roadbed. That can buy you a little, and every bit counts.

go even further using c55 rail and thin sheet styrene instead of ties.

[davefoxx]

Another trick is to span the space over the lower line with just track, no roadbed. That can buy you a little, and every bit counts.

This is definitely true.  If you look close in this early picture of my layout, at top left just this side of the caboose, is a river crossing before the bridge was installed.  I ran flextrack right over the 6"+ gap and ran trains without problems.  In fact, although the bridge has been installed since then, I still haven't built the abutments, and the now-double track bridge is merely supported by eight rail joiners.    So, to span over the width of just two tracks sans subroadbed will be no problem.



DFF

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I haven't had a chance to play with the plan yet, but I want to provide a counter point to the direction that everyone has been going in.

If you're into the PRR in that area, it IS a lot of nothing. The whole thing is big too.

Trying to cram a lot of stuff in the layout, which is the direction that we seem to be going in here, isn't going to faithfully capture that.

If the goal is to have a layout that looks like Cresson, or Gallitzin, or even Summerhill, trying to cram them all in won't do it.

Think about what the iconic scenes are from these locations.

Then think about how to scale those scenes down to fit into the space.

If you want to just make a version of the Carolina Central and call the town Gallitzin, that's entirely fine, but if you're trying to capture the flavor and essence of the area, I think you need to scale the scope of what you're trying to include way down so you can do each thing justice.

If you want some "interest", maybe Gallitzin isn't the best call. Maybe look at South Fork, or Cresson for that side.

But trying to cram Cresson, Gallitzin, Tunnel Hill, etc... in isn't going to let you do anything approaching a faithful representation of any of them.

For example, Cresson isn't Cresson if it's on a curve.