Cisco Bridges: a new layout concept

[Scottl]

Ha ha, I guess I should document some of it, although most of the issues are pretty silly.  The main thing I would do is draw it up precisely, rather than just take measurements from the plans.  A number of errors crept in that are darn difficult to deal with. 

Work is progressing on the second pillar, I've learned a better work flow from the first and I hope this will go more smoothly.

[OldEastRR]

Comments on the layout plan seem to have fizzled out. Did everybody give up?
I'm not sure exactly how the Bible -- the layout planning Bible, that is -- says it, but the gist is, try to put the longest axis of your layout aligned with the longest axis of the space it has. And looking at the very first, primo design by the author, it sure looks to me he set those two axes at 45-50 degrees to each other, instead of them being the same direction.  Or are my eyes fooling me?
The longest axis of the room is a diagonal. By taking that original design and rotating it counterclockwise around 45-50 degrees or so -- so it looks like an  arrowhead pointing toward the upper right corner -- it opens up that whole side of the Frasier River bank into an aisleway, from one end of the river to almost the other. Nice access, both for working and for trainwatching. Rotating the layout's left side may give enough length for the staging tracks to be set against the wall behind the "weekly" door -- or  at least a long permanent shelf that can have a removable extension added. (Anybody think what fun it is to put on/take off a couple hundred cars on a staging yard when it has to be moved once a week? Doesn't sound fun to me). Hell, maybe only enough of the end of the yard to clear the door can be swung up against the wall. (No way to leave the "weekly" door off and run a narrow staging shelf into the back of the closet? Not even if you build the missus a nice shoe rack under it?). Leave the little triangular space open at the bottom of the arrowhead and you even have a nice duckunder access hatch that opens up behind the backdrop board. Nifty!
I don't have the fancy programs and tools you guys have to copy and rearrange the posted plan; I had to cut out  the plan outline on paper and move it around the screen -- but the edge of the "monthly" door opening should clear the lobe of the layout pointing up that way, plus some minor finagling of the track and fascia need occur to make it fit nicely and leave some space to get past the layout at the bench/"monthly" door area. But a tight squeeze of 18" for less than a foot isn't much price to pay to get what you want, is it? You could also adjust the "mouth of the river" fascia to be parallel to the wall and make a nice even corridor. And what a sight as soon as you enter the room -- looking straight down the long valley of the Frasier! All this easier than changing doors, or divorcing to be able to change the doors, whatever, eh, hoser?
But I do wish there was some way to get two ovals into this plan. The OP wants a great looking scene more than crowded one, and for me watching two trains moving across the separate bridges at once would look great. However, the OP didn't say if  he preferred moving to still scenes, so posing two stationary trains and taking pics may be just fine for him.

[Scottl]

Thanks for your comments.   I had settled on a glorified loop and duck-under somewhere on page three of the thread, which had the advantage of re-use of the existing yard and a open, uncluttered scene at Cisco where the bridges are.  The lack of hidden track and grades was also very attractive.  I would modify the yard to have 5-6 long tracks for trains.   I have not really made much of an effort to try to add a second loop for the CPR line, in part to keep the design to be as simple as possible, and to avoid hidden track or grades that might cause problems.  I have not really had many second thoughts about this layout because it seemed so balanced, so I have started by building the high Cisco bridge first to make sure I can actually do it.  Given that this was my first scratch built structure, I had reason to believe that building the bridge would be a serious barrier and I needed to convince myself that I could build build it.  It has taken 14 months so far, although I have been busy and away for work and I was living in Germany for three months in there too, so I am not completely hopeless. My session with a bottle of CA yesterday did little to improve my confidence, even as the finish line is in sight.  I kind of feel like that Russian skier at Sochi trying to finish the race with a broken ski...

I will only have a token CP train that I can use for running, something generic like potash that I can switch the locos to CN as required.  Anything else would require almost doubling my investment in trains, since CP and CN seem to share almost nothing in common (an oil and water analogy seems appropriate!).  The modern operation of the Fraser Canyon has westbounds on the CN line and eastbounds on the CP, so I can use either prototypically.  It would be fantastic to have a fully operational CP loop, but that will have to wait for a larger space.  This may change in the near future, another reason I have not dived into tearing out my existing layout and focused on the bridge construction.  If I had a larger space, I would be more concerned about having both lines operational and add some other signature scenes like Hell's Gate, Black Canyon, Lytton and White Canyon.

Funny enough, I'm in the same boat as you in terms of being able to modify the layout.  A laptop change and a spring clean have left me without the software key for my trusty version of 3dplanit. I'm probably going to get a copy of Anyrail at some stage, as I have found that layout design software is well worth the small investment.

Cheers

[OldEastRR]

Yes, I've seen the various versions and suggested versions by others. Wasn't sure if you were happy with a duckunder; most people aren't. But when planning the next layout remembering to align the longest axes of the layout and the room may be the first option to try to get in all you want.

[Scottl]

After some reflection, I have submitted a revised set of etches to solve some issues and to aid in construction of the approach pillars.  I have considerable admiration for companies that design these kinds of products for sale, it is a finicky business.  I've learned a lot along the way, while sending the bridge rather overbudget (budget, we don't need no stinkin' budget  ). 

Here are a few of the little things that will make assembly faster and more accurate.   The base plates will now fold and have a pre-formed pin hole to secure the pillar post to the foundation pier.



The pillar beams themselves have sidewalls of 0.020 X 0.125" styrene for strength, and are laminated with 0.005 brass sides with rivet relief.  Assembling the beams to the laced front and back has been a pain, so I added tabs that will bend up and form a support to align the styrene.  These won't be visible in the finished assembly, but will make the process less stressful.



I've also fine tuned the width of the diagonal support braces, which were too wide (due to a late stage design decision...) and I have altered the dimensions of some of the slots for tabs to allow diagonal and horizontal braces to fit.   

It is surprising how fast it is getting for me to put the artwork together, now that I have a library of shapes and structures to work from.  Now I just need to learn to measure twice, and etch once 

[Chris333]

Budget?  I wonder what a kit for that bridge would cost, if available.

[Scottl]

There was a brass built version sold by Overland (I think) for about $5000 in ca. 2000.  It is stupendous.

Material costs for me are rather high so far- there is over $150 in styrene strips, 12 packages of Central Valley parts, 4 packages of Micro Engineering viaduct components, touching $400 in custom etches, $150 in GMM walkways and enough glue to put most of TRW in rehab.  There is more but I can't recall at the moment.  To do all the rivets on the main bridge with Archer decals would probably be several hundred more.  As I said, the budget is busted on this project.

With a minimal mark up, a kit would probably approach $1500 I would think, perhaps a lot more.  As far as I know, this is the only rendition of the bridge in n scale.  There is only one version in HO that I have found (Doug Hole's, published about 10 years ago).

If I did it again, I would do it entirely of brass, and I think the cost would be not much higher.  Those plastic parts from CV and ME are pricey (and a compromise) since you only need a few off each fret, and at $3.95 a bag for styrene strips, it adds up fast.  The GMM walkways were also a compromise and I could do my own to spec for the same cost or less, and assembly would be easier. 

When this is done and the layout is running, I will probably do the CP Cisco bridge entirely in brass.  It is a single track chord truss that is not available on the market.  I kind of like the challenge of it and it is much simpler than the CN bridge in execution.

BTW, anyone looking for extra bridge parts? 

[Scottl]

Another package of etched goodness arrived, this time bearing railings, walkways and revised pillar parts.  The distinctive CN railings turned out very nicely.

[Scottl]

More bridge fun this weekend, putting together the second approach pillar for the bridge from the brass parts.  A few of the design changes I made were worth it, while others did not help at all, so I will know better for the next project.  I am much happier with this pillar and it will be front and center, so I wanted to get it right.



Now that the pillars are done, I have turned my attention to the walkways on the approach bridge decks.  I etched these as well, and they turned out pretty nicely.  PPD did the work on brass rather than SS, but it will work for the walkways, I think.  There are four bends on each piece, to give a side support and for the bent angle braces that secure to the side of the bridge deck.  I need to figure out how to fold the edges consistently, good thing I have two sets of these parts.



The brass-SS switch really comes back to bite me with the railings, which are itty bitty, super-fragile parts.  The railings worked out well, but bend if you blink or even put too much force on the tweezers.  They are mounted into tiny little square base plates, and my first attempt at putting them together looks more like a glue explosion.  I might... just might, consider soldering these.  This promises to be a frustrating phase, and I might just get another set of railings out of SS.  They won't need to be painted, and may hold up better to handling during construction.  I'll decide after a soldering test, as SS won't solder well.

Tweezer tips for scale...



Thanks for following.

[M.C. Fujiwara]

Pillar looks groovy: you're putting the a$$ in bra$$.

Slowly getting more and more into brass structures myself, so very much enjoying the sharing of your progress!

[mark dance]

Looking good Scott...what are your thoughts on how you are going to paint the inside of the laced corner girders on the pillars?

md

[Scottl]

Hmmm, I don't know really.  I could shoot a spray up from the bottom or top of each pillar with the air brush, that might coat things pretty well.  Any advice?  Those strips of white styrene inside need to be covered for sure.

[mark dance]

Only advise would be to paint before you fold them.  On the Barr creek bridge I painted components and sub assemblies as I went as I wasn't sure I could get between all the links and fiddly bits once assembled without putting on too much paint and losing details and getting runs and stuff.  The other bridges were simpler and I didn't have a problem getting inside and painting at the end.  For all the bridges I used the "Tom Mann" salt technique for rusting them up which meant two layers of paint (rust red then the finish coat) on top of anything that was there first so perhaps I risked putting on more paint then you will?

md

[Scottl]

Now you have me thinking about the paint, something I had not done really.  I did paint some of interiors of beams on the main bridge for this reason, but it is worth considering my approach overall. 

[Scottl]

Here is a good study photo to contemplate the painting.

This excellent image by Mike Danneman (from Railpictures.net) shows the various phases of paint on the bridge:



1. Main arch bridge:  rusty black on the east side, and primer orange/orange paint on the west.  Sharp delineation between these colors. 
2. Approach bridge pillars:  same shade of primer orange/orange.  Most pictures show it to be weathered and quite rust stained.
3. Arch details:  catwalk is orange, bridge deck plates black, top railing is galvanized metal/silver, white communication cable conduit.
4. Approach bridge deck (left, pillars, middle), black, little evidence of rust
5. Approach bridge deck (right) rusty black

My sense is I should paint everything black first, probably a weathered tone.  I will follow this by the orange on the pillars and main arch bridge.  Then I can blend it once it is all together and weather it.  Making it look realistic will be a challenge, especially the orange/black mix on the main bridge.

I'm open to suggestions, especially from some of the folks with a great talent for finishing and weathering.  I am glad Mark brought this up. Some components will be hard to paint when the bridge is fully assembled.