staging, is it worth the headache?

[2-8-8-0]

I really need to buy the full version of this program...the plan below is pretty close to a dream for me, lots of places to just watch trains run! And yep, even has staging, tho withthe limited stuff I buy, theonline yard would probably suffice

[Bruce Bird]

You have room for open staging yards and you're asking this question?  Of COURSE you have staging.  However many staging tracks you think you'll need- double it.  Got a unit train that doesn't run every session?  You'll need a track for that.  MOW special?  Need a track for that as well.  Even if you want to start the session with trains out on the line, you'll need a spot to park them until you move it out to the siding, yard, or mainline prior to the session.  If you want to run trains between sessions you'll need these things pretty much out of the way. 

For a layout intended for ops you'll need as many stagin tracks as you can get!

Bruce

[asciibaron]

For a layout intended for ops you'll need as many stagin tracks as you can get!

i hear this rubric repeated endlessly and i don't believe it.  i have operated some pretty big layouts and on one of them, one staging yard was converted to an operating yard because he had so much wasted staging capacity - he followed the mantra - whatever you think you need for staging, double it.  he ended up stealing away some more staging to expand another yard - instead of hiding the trains, they were just routed to on-line destinations - the larger yard, the new yard, or some more cars dropped at on-line customers.  

not all trains make it to their destination in a 24 hour period.  why not model that?  if i have three sidings that can hold a 12 car train (12 40' cars, a cabin and two 4 axle road units), i need to leave one of them clear at all times for meets.  the others can have a train waiting for a crew, or some place to go 25 miles down the line.  that's two tracks of 'destination' staging i don't need.  so right off the bat i can do without two tracks of staging.  my local originates and ends in the small yard.  no need to stage him.  that's one less track of staging.  now i have a mine run - it comes from some other place on the railroad if two of the three sidings are already used.

in my 24 hour period, how many trains were run on the prototype  - 6, 7, more, less?  my sessions will last about two beers or about an hour.  an hour 30 tops.  so lets say my session represents 6-8 hours on a fast clock.  how many trains were on the sheet in that time frame?

with the above in mind, how many tracks of off line staging do i need - i think i can safely have 5 tracks with one of those being used for storage of an infrequently operated special...

[wcfn100]

 if i have three sidings that can hold a 12 car train (12 40' cars, a cabin and two 4 axle road units)

Lol, 12 cars is just the set out for Waterloo, 6 corn, 2 trailer flats, scrap or steel gon, and 3 empty IC gons.  I can see why we're on different wave lengths.  Let me know if you can store 3 50-60 car trains on the layout.


Jason

[Dave V]

Take it from me...  Build a layout without adequate staging, you will regret it and lose interest.  You see what I did.  I can use Enola as an active classification yard or staging (although it could use a few more feet for the latter application).

Build yourself a layout with minimal staging and you will guarantee you will not operate or enjoy it.  My two hard-earned cents.

[wm3798]

in my 24 hour period, how many trains were run on the prototype  - 6, 7, more, less?

Depends on which prototype you're lookin at...

If you're still thinking WM around Hancock in 1967, you better open 'er up a little.  Sure, there were only a handful of scheduled freights, but there were extras out the ying yang.  Somewhere in the stacks I've got a train sheet, I believe from your period, and I think it's from Maryland Jct... Don't hold your breath, but I can provide...

Lee

[asciibaron]

in my 24 hour period, how many trains were run on the prototype  - 6, 7, more, less?

Depends on which prototype you're lookin at...

If you're still thinking WM around Hancock in 1967,

stop looking at my layout.  look at the bigger picture of operations on your layout.  why are all your trains that don't originate in a yard start in staging?  why is the set empty?

[asciibaron]

Lol, 12 cars is just the set out for Waterloo, 6 corn, 2 trailer flats, scrap or steel gon, and 3 empty IC gons.  I can see why we're on different wave lengths.  Let me know if you can store 3 50-60 car trains on the layout.

we are not on different wavelengths - i was using an example.  i'm sorry you don't understand that.  i know where you can store your 60 car trains.

here...

if i have three sidings that will hold a 60 car car train.... better?  not everyone has space of 60 car trains, but that doesn't change the point i'm making.  not all staging needs to be off the railroad.

[2-8-8-0]

in my 24 hour period, how many trains were run on the prototype  - 6, 7, more, less?

Depends on which prototype you're lookin at...

If you're still thinking WM around Hancock in 1967, you better open 'er up a little.  Sure, there were only a handful of scheduled freights, but there were extras out the ying yang.  Somewhere in the stacks I've got a train sheet, I believe from your period, and I think it's from Maryland Jct... Don't hold your breath, but I can provide...

Lee

I would be quite interested in this, bit later than I am doing (early 1960s) but I cant imagine it would be much different.

[wm3798]

But not all of my trains originate in staging.  There's usually a pile of cars at the paper mill awaiting their next move, there's usually a coal drag or an Alpha Jet sitting in a siding, and a block of cars waiting for it in the yard...  I like the idea of hitting the "pause" button at the end of a session. 

If for no other reason it gives me a train to roundy roundy with between sessions!

Lee

[DKS]

Lol, 12 cars is just the set out for Waterloo, 6 corn, 2 trailer flats, scrap or steel gon, and 3 empty IC gons.  I can see why we're on different wave lengths.  Let me know if you can store 3 50-60 car trains on the layout.

we are not on different wavelengths - i was using an example.  i'm sorry you don't understand that.  i know where you can store your 60 car trains.

here...

if i have three sidings that will hold a 60 car car train.... better?  not everyone has space of 60 car trains, but that doesn't change the point i'm making.  not all staging needs to be off the railroad.

Sorry for begin the ignoramus here (I'm a roundy-rounder), but it seems to me, as a casual observer, that ops sessions tend to run as if there was a beginning and an end to it. When, in real life, as Steve points out, there's no beginning or end, but a continuum. So, do ops sessions assume a clean slate for the start and end points? Or do they present a starting condition, where certain trains are at certain locations before the clock starts (and likewise when it stops)? If the former, is this done for convenience? And if so, why not make it a bit more realistic, and begin/end sessions with trains at various locations, as if a big pause button is being pressed?

[asciibaron]

Sorry for begin the ignoramus here (I'm a roundy-rounder), but it seems to me, as a casual observer, that ops sessions tend to run as if there was a beginning and an end to it. When, in real life, as Steve points out, there's no beginning or end, but a continuum. So, do ops sessions assume a clean slate for the start and end points? Or do they present a starting condition, where certain trains are at certain locations before the clock starts (and likewise when it stops)? If the former, is this done for convenience? And if so, why not make it a bit more realistic, and begin/end sessions with trains at various locations, as if a big pause button is being pressed?

on the larger layouts i have operated - 14-20 people - trains come from staging or yards - nothing is on the main, the local is waiting to be made up.  there is a starting condition and an ending condition.  the ending condition is all trains off the main and cars classified in the yard for the next session.  i have never seen an operating session end with a train in a siding on the main.

i think it makes life easier to setup the next session based on a final condition.  i think that is because unlike industries, interchanges, yards, and staging, the mainline and passing sidings are not treated as locations on the layout.  they are between places and you don't send a train to a between place.

like the unix example - everything is a file - if every location on a layout was a possible destination, one could get that much closer to the reality of railroad operations.  capacity is a major issue that has a ripple effect - that ripple effect is seen in many operating sessions, but it's typically self induced due to short physical distances on the layout between places that are in reality very far apart.  covering 20 feet on a layout between places that are 50 miles apart does not allow time for the end point receive a train.  the typical effect is grid lock until the yard job has a track ready for a train, then other trains can move.  i have seen this dozens of times on layouts and it may seem prototypical, the gridlock is the result of it being a limited space model railroad, not a modeling of prototype causes.

[conrail98]

Dave, I think it depends on how you do your operating sessions. Some people say we're going to run X number of trains during the session and stack them up to execute out of staging, having them leave at whatever is appropriate for the line. Others, and I'm leaning towards this myself, will base their trains off of the prototype or made up schedule of trains. Many folks, based on other forums I've looked at, are leaning towards "half-day" sessions, meaning they run only the first 12 hours of the day or last 12 hours on a, usually, 3:1 fast clock, so a 4 hour session. To me, that would mean trains on the line somewhere, whether it is on a siding or on the main or on A/D tracks, etc., but I'm not 100% sure how people do handle it,

Phil

[asciibaron]

To me, that would mean trains on the line somewhere, whether it is on a siding or on the main or on A/D tracks, etc., but I'm not 100% sure how people do handle it...

i have operated several layouts that use the 1/2 day fast clock and all trains start from either staging or a visible yard.  a WM layout in Hagerstown has a nice long main that covers nearly 70 miles of railroad that at the start of the session is completely empty.

[wm3798]

I've seen both.  On layouts where people bring their own equipment to run (usually just engines in the case of a more rigid session... cars are usually accounted for by the layout owner) trains end up back in the yard for non-railroady reasons... i.e. the equipment has to go back into the boxes.

Other non-proto, but totally practical reasons include the anticipation of working on the layout between sessions, it's just easier if there isn't a bunch of trains in the way, and it's probably better for the rolling stock in that case anyway.  (If you've ever jigsawed a few riser tails while there's trains on the layout, you know what I mean!)

That being said, I always, ALWAYS have the trains re-staged back on the layout before next session with the gang.

Obviously, I haven't run a session on the new layout, but the likely scenario is a westbound grain extra will be holed up at Cumberland waiting for an eastbound Alpha Jet that might start the day on the siding at Pinkerton.  Meanwhile a drag of empty hoppers will be sitting on the departure track at Ridgeley waiting for the AJ to clear so it can work through the interlocking at MY to go up the Thomas Sub.  Up at Elkins, the West Local would be pre-assembled with empties for Thomas, and some cars for PPG and the Brewery in Cumberland.  This would roll out and work its way to Shaw, where it might have to hold for the empty train to come up the hill before finishing its work at Ridgeley. 

It could be a half an hour to 45 minutes before the first train emerges from staging.

From a "play value" perspective, having a shotgun start adds a whole lot more variety to your ops session, and gives you the opportunity to run as many or as few trains as you like, and every session starts out a little differently.

Lee