PRR/Conrail Juniata Division Engineering Report

[Cameron_Talley]

Anything preventing you from getting a loop of track and just messing around with narrow gauge?  You could always build a module or something, just to get your feet wet and see if it's something  you want to do.

I learned a long time ago from a bad experience with video game consoles that once you sell it, it's gone.  If you suddenly feel like doing N again, you'll have to start all over. 

I don't think model railroaders should have to stick to one scale, though--so why not do both?

[eric220]

I'm thinking...  The BLI M1s are almost here, and if they're half as good as the HO ones, I'll be back in Pennsy heaven.

Maybe the answer isn't so much switching scales but building a new Pennsy altogether.  Starting the JD again from scratch, this time with code 55 done right.  Still based on Lewistown, but more prototypical.

Dunno...  Every time I steel myself for the extension, the re-tracking of the existing layout scares me off.  I'm worried I can't get a nice, reliable flat surface for the roadbed once I dig up the code 80.

EDIT:  I just need to freaking commit.  After this weekend's open house.  Hopefully I'll be able to temporarily fix the tunnel track problem.  But after that, the only way to make sure something happens is to start prying up track.  Then I'll have to do something.  Ever wonder why--when I do work, I work so fast?  It's my German "alles in Ordnung" gene...  I can't leave the layout unfinished for long.

Dave, I think you may be on to something. You've said many a time that you're not happy with the operating potential of the JD. It was built as a show layout, and that doesn't seem to be what you want at this point. Perhaps exploring potential designs for a new layout would be a good step. Apart from time spent, it's a free excercise. Who knows, you might even come up with something that will really get the itch going.

[bbussey]

I think it will be harder to retrack the existing layout then it would be to just redo the whole layout. It is true that it will be tough to get it to run right. If you were to sell the current layout and start over i think could be the best plan.

How so?  Rip up the old track, smooth the roadbed, lay the new track, re-ballast.  And it can be done sections at a time, so that the layout isn't out of service.

Has Popp sold his New Haven layout yet?  I don't see how any layout today can be sold for fair value.  Better to upgrade or expand on what currently exists.

[chicken45]

What if you flat out sold the JD. Because of its legendary status, I feel like it would it be in high demand, but would  sell at a high enough price to fund a new JD? I feel like there's a lot of people out there who would love to own it. Even if you took some of the buildings and such off, I still feel there is a market.
That way, instead of trying to "shoehorn" it in to a new track plan, you can just nail the next plan from scratch.

Retracking sucks. Especially since the geometry of the turnouts is different. I've tinkered around with you plan in AnyRail for quite some time trying to make it work in C55. I'm sure you could make it work. I sure couldn't.

[Dave V]

What if you flat out sold the JD. Because of its legendary status, I feel like it would it be in high demand, but would  sell at a high enough price to fund a new JD? I feel like there's a lot of people out there who would love to own it. Even if you took some of the buildings and such off, I still feel there is a market.
That way, instead of trying to "shoehorn" it in to a new track plan, you can just nail the next plan from scratch.

Retracking sucks. Especially since the geometry of the turnouts is different. I've tinkered around with you plan in AnyRail for quite some time trying to make it work in C55. I'm sure you could make it work. I sure couldn't.

I think it will be harder to retrack the existing layout then it would be to just redo the whole layout. It is true that it will be tough to get it to run right. If you were to sell the current layout and start over i think could be the best plan.

I would never consider selling the layout whole unless I were changing scales.  If I were to start a new N scale layout, it would require every tree stump and trash can from the existing layout to be salvaged.  I would use all the same structures and details.  All that would be left would be track, roads, and grass cover.  Even the mountains would be denuded of their foliage and rock faces.  Much of the JD's scenery and structures come from my previous layout, and some trees even from an HO layout I did in 2000-2002.  No, if the JD is no longer mine it will no longer be at all.  The combined worth of the raw materials I could salvage from it vastly exceed whatever cost I could recuperate from selling it whole.

People always tell me that because it's popular I could demand a high price for it.  I really, really doubt it, though.  Certainly not close to covering all of the materials contained therein, to say nothing of the time investment.

EDIT:  Ironically, it would be much easier and safer to relay the layout with Unitrack, which would be much more forgiving of the bumps and nicks...   

[bbussey]

Guys,

I've retracked layout sections from c80 to c55.  It's not a big deal.  Most of the ballast comes up with the track.   You do some smoothing of the cork to remove any remaining glue if necessary.  You vacuum up the remaining debris.  You replace with c55 flex track, which smooths out the run just by there being fewer joints.  It really isn't a horrible scenario.

[eric220]

'Cept for the squishy Woodland Scenics foam roadbed.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

It seems like you're just bored with a pretty mature layout.

Maybe it IS the time to tear it down and start from scratch: focus more on accuracy this time, like you've been slowly moving to. Do Lewistown, or do Huntingdon, or do Tyrone, or hell, even some of the east and or west slopes. Do the research, do the scratch building, get it right.

The thing that I always come back to with narrow gauge stuff, like the Colorado stuff, or the EBT, is that, sure, it's interesting, but it's not very deep. How many classes of PRR hopper cars were there? And how many variations in each one?

How many Galloping Gooses are there? You could spend a year building each one, then three years in, you're done. Then what?

Then, how many times can you watch the same three engines and the same 10 cars run through the same two scenes?

I get your problem though, you need to do something that excites you, and the JD may not be it anymore, but I don't think the Narrow Gauge stuff will scratch the itch for long either. It's like a a hot dumb girl. Maybe good for a few fun evenings (and mornings, and afternoons), but you don't want to make her your wife for 70 years...

[Dave V]

How many Galloping Gooses are there? You could spend a year building each one, then three years in, you're done. Then what?

Seven.

You and I have discussed the operations angle of narrow gauge, and I can really see you getting bored pretty quick.  For me as a 'roundy-rounder, though, it's a non-issue.

Yeah, I'm torn big time.

And Eric, that Woodland Scenics crap will go with the track.  I have a healthy stockpile of cork.

It seems like you're just bored with a pretty mature layout.

Yup...  However, I'm hoping the track arrangement changes that go with re-tracking may help make old new again.

[bbussey]

'Cept for the squishy Woodland Scenics foam roadbed.

That stuff is horrible.  Cork or bust.

[wcfn100]

How many Galloping Gooses are there? You could spend a year building each one, then three years in, you're done. Then what?

Then you go ride on the real ones.  And after that, maybe help work on one.  And for a few bucks I think you can drive (is that right?) the one in Delores about 300'.   

I don't get why people think this is an itch to scratch.  Dave has previously modeled in HOn3 and has mentioned several times the idea of doing it again even before moving to Colorado.  If this was just something in passing, the garden layout would cover it.



Jason

[Dave V]

Jason gets it.   

Really, it's been a passion since I first rode the Durango & Silverton in 1989.

[delamaize]

So I'm going to duck and run after saying this, but why not have both?
NG is typically up in the mountains right? so why not build a shallow, 'round the room, shelf layout in Nn3 or HOn3/HOn30, and keep/rebuild the JD?

[davefoxx]

I don't get why people think this is an itch to scratch.  Dave has previously modeled in HOn3 and has mentioned several times the idea of doing it again even before moving to Colorado.  If this was just something in passing, the garden layout would cover it.

Here's why I think it is an itch, and I will admit, I cannot read Dave's mind, so I may be off base: Dave loves the PRR and enjoys mixing it up by changing eras for PC and CR.  What he can get from these roads is Class 1 heavy railroading.  I too have flirted with modeling the narrow gauge ET&WNC (you flatlanders know it as the Tweetsie) over the years, but, ultimately, I end up missing long trains or intermodal or fast trains on well-maintained track or a larger variety of rolling stock.  ET&WNC #12, a ten wheeler, is one of my favorite locomotives.  But, I know that when I was attempting to model narrow gauge, it quickly became obvious that I would become bored after a while.  There's only so much you can do to mix it up on a lot of narrow gauge roads: same locomotives, same cars.  On Class 1 railroading, you can not only have rolling stock from interchanging roads, but from around the continent.  Depending on your era, other road's locomotives can run through, too.  In Dave's case, he mixes it up by running PRR, PC, and CR in different eras.  I like that and have tossed this idea around on my layout, too.  I don't think he can get the variety as much on a narrow gauge layout.  I also think he might miss Class 1 railroading after a while.  I could be wrong.

Dave, I am behind your idea of scrapping the JD, salvaging everything possible, starting over, and learning from your mistakes.  God knows the Seaboard Central was built out of the mistakes of my previous HCD layouts: the Virginia Central and the A&R.  Don't forget, the original JD can be salvaged from the HCD down without modification.  Peel off the layer of foam, scrape the door clean, and you're ready to go again.  Why try to live with the current track plan, if you feel like you're having to settle or make sacrifices to make the entire new plan work?  I think you could start over with much less expense than most would realize, considering what could be salvaged and what you have on hand.  In other words, since you can reuse so much of the JD, what's the loss?

DFF   

[Dave V]

Dave, so remember your interest in the Tweetsie. 

Now, imagine you live in Tweetsie country.  Every day you look out the window and see Tweetsie country.  You cross over the Tweetsie's ROW on your way to work.  There are dozens upon dozens of pieces of surviving Tweetsie equipment and locomotives scattered about every town within a few hours' drive of you. You can ride four different incarnations of Tweetsie for between a few hours or a whole day if you want.  There's a whole museum an hour from you bursting at the seams with Tweetsie.  Now, all the local hobbyists are Tweetsie guys and your LHS is buried with ready-to-run, reliable, and sound-equipped Tweetsie stuff.  You could buy the entire roster off the shelf.

Imagine also that you're thousands of miles from anyone else modeling Seaboard.

Hopefully this frames things for you better.

Colorado does an amazing job preserving its narrow gauge history.  Even though most of the tracks are gone, there are stations, bridges, rights-of-way, and even several stone roundhouses remaining from its heyday, and almost every roadside park has a stuffed and mounted D&RGW or C&S narrow gauge engine.  It's like crack here.

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But, I think Bryan's right, though.  I will enjoy the initial foray into HOn3, but I will start to miss my Pennsy stuff.  It would mean starting from zero.  No structures, no appropriate scenery materials, and a very modest roster of craftsman kit-built cars I built over 20 years ago (my father still has them).  It's the starting over from nothing that's the least attractive about this idea.

Something to consider.  If I try removing the track, one of two things happens.  Either I can do it cleanly and be able to replace it with 55 or I can't....in which case I start over.  Either way.

Honestly I've not been all that interested in working on the layout for some time.  I have plenty of ideas (with corresponding flurries of activity in this thread) but then I go downstairs and look at it, and all the work it represents, and end up doing nothing.

Kinda frustrating, actually.