Next Challenge... Big Pool to Cherry Run

[wm3798]

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=qm3x7d8gy3m5&style=b&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=38863850&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

I'm thinking about rethinking another part of the layout.



This would be in the area from the big river crossing just to the right of where Cumberland is shown, extending counterclockwise around the view block the bisects the peninsula.

The dimensions of the area are 88" from the scenic divider x a table depth of 36" (minimum, this could be fudged out to 42" if necessary) and the double track main that emerges from the divider is centered at approximately 20" from the back edge of the platform.  On the right side, the shelf with the bridges crossing the river is 12" deep, and this scene can be reworked (I'm thinking about a single track McCoy's Ferry bridge...


http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=qm1bvh8h2626&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=38871902&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

...which as you can see, even curves in the right direction!  The lower Elkins line needs to be taken into account as well.

I'm messing with a rough draft... Stay tuned.

Lee

[wm3798]

Here's the rough draft.


This actually solves a lot of problems, and there is only one significant compromise.

First... it takes a considerable climb off of the Thomas Sub, since (here's the compromise) it shares the ROW with the B&O at the front edge of the table.  Before I had it diving below the Cumberland scene, requiring an additional 2.5" of fall (minimally).  This also cleans up the grades that would have been required for the show running cut off (the leg of the wye that comes off east of MY, currently the coal mine branch).  The other significant downside is that B&O trains will pretty much have to traverse the entire Thomas Sub before they reach home rails and the Cherry Run interchange track.  There may be an opportunity to bury some sort of balloon track under the reworked peninsula, but that can come later.  For now, I'll figure to put B&O staging under Hagerstown.. Probably only needs to be a 2 track balloon, so that shouldn't be a big deal. 

A few notes.  The Manor Mine complex is part of the Chaffee Branch, which will sit about 6" above the B&O track level.  The ridge it sits on will be handy to hide the track tunnels as well as the river dying into the backdrop.

The WM double track needs to be at least 7' long from the crossover east of MY (existing) to where it pinches back to single track for McCoy's Ferry.  That single track should continue as long as possible before reaching the West throat at Hagerstown.

The Connellsville Sub grade can also be greatly reduced, since it no longer has to dive below the deeper Thomas sub.  Also, since I've decided to build an entirely new staging balloon under Cherry Run, it no longer has to tie in to the deeper East staging.  I want to work in some sort of through track between east and west, though to provide for loads east/empties west type moves.  That can come later, too.

At Elkins, I've decided to reduce the scope there to a simple 4 track fiddle yard, with a small engine house and no turntable... The real estate quotient for turntables is fully consumed by Hagerstown.  So really, Elkins will be little more than "live staging" with basic scenery.  Still set 2-3" lower than Hagerstown.

So how about it?

Lee

[DKS]

Random observations.

I think this will make for a really nice scenic area. But the curves look mighty tight around Chery Run. May need to realign things a bit to relax some of the curves. (What's your minimum radius?)

Personally, I think the whole Connellsville Sub peninsula should be reduced as much as possible so that Elkins can run along the wall at Thomas. I can see the space in front of Hagerstown being very busy during ops, and spreading the yards around the room might help the space crunch.

[wm3798]

I can reduce the size of the CNL sub lobe, because I no longer would need the run to make the extra grade work.  I can cut it down to about the same size as the Chaffee lobe.  Of course, this will require some reworking of the Chaffee Branch module I've already built, but its only foam!

Lee

[DKS]

What exactly is going on in the area around Manor Mine, with that wye-like looking part? It's hard to follow, and at first glance looks like it could be a real bear with the grades.

[asciibaron]

the canal goes over the creek at McCoy's Ferry.  the aqueduct is very broad and it also has a road tunnel that was used to access McCoy's ferry.

this shot was taken from the western aqueduct abutment for the road:


ok, i misread the drawing - the river is the large body of water... and i really don't like using the B&O to get to Elkins... i suggest you start with the plan for Hagerstown and erase everything else and see what you get.

[wm3798]

I'll make the B&O about 3/4" to an 1" lower than the WM at the point of the interchange track, allowing for a grade on the bridge.  The Beano track would descend toward the wall at the top, and pass under the WM via a foobie tunnel portal.  I may pass the river under the Beano a'la Ilchester...



That way I can re-use the Walthers double track bridge for something.

The wye under Manor Mine is as follows:

First, disregard the mess there where it says "Bayard". 

The grade will be basically level, beginning at MY and going east.  The left leg of the wye would be the route that eastbound Beano trains would take to cross the river at Cherry Run.  The right leg would be a cut off, connecting MY to Bayard, and only used for loopty loop running on the Thomas Sub (completes a basic figure The top leg would be the Thomas Sub connecting to the Beano for a short bit of trackage rights.

Elevation wise, the main line, wye and west end of the Beano track is at 42", the track into west staging is at 38" and the Manor Mine tipple tracks are at 48."

At the other end, the Beano track would be at 40.5", the WM main would be at 43.5"

Or thereabouts...

Lee

[DKS]

OK. What's the real dimension along the top wall (currently marked 16')?
Then, what is the distance from that wall down the left to the backdrop divider?

EDIT: OK, now that I've stared at the plan until my eyes have crossed, I'm thinking that I need to back up a bit and see if I can figure out what it is you're trying to accomplish operationally. Because in my limited capacity for understanding operation, I'm just not getting how this whole area is supposed to support operations. It seems to be kind of a knot of tracks with no clear purpose (at least to me).

How about let's diagram the routes, and get the diagram down so it supports the desired operations, then see how the plan can be made to satisfy these needs?

[wm3798]

Can do.  Give me a minute...
First, here's a cleaned up version that should present itself to the operations a little more clearly.


You'll see that I separated the Thomas Sub from the B&O, but this creates an unseemly pile of track crossing the scene in parallel.

Here's an approximation of the cross section at the interchange bridge, to give you an idea of the elevation changes.


Lee

[DKS]

Thanks for the cleanup. I can't help but feel like you've got a particular scene in mind that you're trying to work into the layout, but one that may not naturally lend itself to the needs of the plan. It also looks like Elkins is staying in front of Hagerstown?

[John]

I don;t see how the operators are going to get around in there ...

[davefoxx]

Lee,

I don't mean to be negative about your plan, but I still think, like the others are saying, that Elkins' placement in front of Hagerstown is asking for trouble operationally.  I can imagine leaning over Elkins and knocking cars off of the track while trying to reach into the classification and A/D tracks of Hagerstown to uncouple cars or even read car numbers.  I think that deck is getting too deep.  I would recommend pulling Elkins back to the area you have labeled "Thomas" in the plan above, which is the area where the west end of Ridgely Yard currently resides.

Otherwise, I really like the new ideas you have going in the revised plan.  The Potomac River/C&O canal scene could be absolutely incredible.

Dave

[DKS]

OK, this may be a bit premature, since I don't have many facts down on ops, but I see this as a more viable alternative. I think it's a bit more flexible, and still provides most of the elements I think you're after.

[wm3798]

Hmmm.  Nice sweeping lines, but this leaves out a lot of what I want...  The Thomas Sub has notorious grades and sharp curves.  I won't be sending 86' auto parts cars down there, so I can pinch down to 15" and in some cases less.  I definitely need to keep the coal yard at Bayard, especially if I'm kicking the piss out of Elkins.

The shape of the peninsula isn't bad, but there can't be that much track.  I'll kill off the continuous run cut-off before I ended up with all that.

To give you some ops background...
B&O trains on the Central States Dispatch route traveled east on the B&O to Cherry Run, then crossed over to the WM, switched some at Hagerstown, then went east to the Reading via Lurgan, similar to the Alpha Jets.  I believe they went as far as Allentown, then got on the CNJ to go through to NY.  There was also zillions of tons of coal that moved over this route to the northeast.   In the perfect world, which would be a clear span basement approximately 100 feet long, there would be full staging for the B&O.

Among the other routes, the Thomas Sub would be pretty much as I laid it out originally.  There were a bunch of feeder branches that came into Elkins, where coal was marshalled into trains, then sent up Black Fork Grade to Knobmount for sorting and waying.  From their trains went either to Baltimore for steam, Bethlehem Steel, or export via Port Covington; to Bethlehem PA via the Reading, or to Pittsburgh via the P&LE.  I definitely don't have room for Knobmount, so my hope was to keep a reasonably good sized yard at Elkins so I could do all the sorting there, then send the trains on up to MY and on from there.

Bayard would be an important yard for setting up mine runs and swapping loads for empties.  Again, if Elkins is emaciated the way you show it, Bayard has to be at least what I had drawn.

The WM main does basically what you've shown, connecting Hagerstown to the current layout via Cherry Run.  The Connellsville Sub also works the way you've drawn it, and probably better because this will get auto racks and 86' boxcars.

With that in mind, do you think there are any alternatives on the peninsula?  I mean, what if we started with a clean slate altogether?

Lee

[TrainCat2]

I may pass the river under the Beano a'la Ilchester...

I know where you can get that EXACT bridge too.  ;D