Paint for locomotive project

[carlso]

I am in the middle of re-furbishing my Key UP Challenger #3985. I had a jammed front engine and have figured that out. While it is down I want to repaint it in the two-tone grey with yellow stripes scheme and re-number as #3984 with deflectors. I have some great help from @robert3985 and @UP4-8-8-4 regarding the shades to use. Seems I need some SP greys and some UP greys and yellow. It has been suggested to use Scalecoat II but I am having trouble finding all the shades I need. I thought about Tru-Color to complete the shades I need but am not sure about over painting the two different brands.

Any experience with using the two brands? Any suggestions regarding shaded to use is welcome as well.

Stay well and thanks,
Carl

[C855B]

I've overpainted Scalecoat II with Tru-Color with no discernible ill effects at least in the short term. Scalecoat I and II are pretty bulletproof, although I've had issues with it going on too thick (probably errors in my technique). That said, consider Tru-Color to be airbrush-only since it is a lacquer, and will dissolve and mix with any underlying layers of itself if overpainted with a brush, even minor touch-ups. Found that out the hard way.

[carlso]

Thanks Mike,

As I understand it Scalecoat is for metal and Scalecoat II is for plastic. I failed to mention above that my boiler is factory painted brass (circa 1984 I think) and the tender is a plastic Athearn unit.
Since the boiler is already painted shouldn't I be able to use the SC II on it?

carl

[C855B]

Yeah, SC-II should be fine that way. The primary difference between SC-I and -II is how "hot" the base solvent blend is. SC-I will dissolve or at least craze a lot of plastics; OTOH I haven't heard anybody say (...others please jump in here!...) that SC-II is a problem on properly-cleaned metals anyway.

[robert3985]

I use Scalecoat II on plastic and brass without any problems whatsoever.  I clean my brass in my ultrasonic cleaner, rinse in hot water thoroughly, then brush it down with Bestine before painting.  I also don't use a primer and over the decades have never had a problem doing that...or NOT doing that.  The trick is to make sure the metal is completely washed and de-greased.

Scalecoat II is my preferred paint for everything except weathering, and I am a huge proponent of painting glossy paint on engines first, decaling, over-coating the decals with gloss clear, then weathering appropriately with various semi-gloss, metallic and flat finish paints.

Oh...and on Scalecoat II painted brass, I bake my models at 150 deg. F...using an in-oven candy thermometer and stabilizing the oven by letting it get to that temperature for 15 minutes before putting my painted brass model into it on a clean block of premium pine.  I bake for 20 minutes, remove, and let cool to the touch.  If I can still smell solvent, I bake a bit longer, until the solvent smell is gone.

Be cautious, as over-baking will darken and dull your colors...but done properly, it certainly speeds up multiple coats of paint on your model, such as UP TTG.

Also, I never bake a model that has been decaled, which means I let that last protective clear coat over the decals air-cure.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore 

[nkalanaga]

As far as I know the only difference between SC I and II is the proportion of the solvents.  They both use the same solvents, just in different proportions.  As Bob says, they both can be baked, they both work fine on brass, and the colors are the same.  For me, at least from spray cans, they both spray the same.  I suspect that they could be mixed together, but have never tried it.  Either one goes on top of the other, as long as the first is cured, with no problems.

[carlso]

Thanks my friends, I appreciate all of the feedback. I just checked and found that the Athearn tender is molded black plastic and not painted. I may give it a very light grey primer coat first. I am going to use SCII.

I plan on using, if I can find all of them:

Loco Black
Harbor Mist Gray
SP Dark Gray
SP Lettering Gray (for smoke box & firebox)
UP Yellow (not new UP yellow)

Thanks again for the assistance and be well,
Carl

[robert3985]

Thanks my friends, I appreciate all of the feedback. I just checked and found that the Athearn tender is molded black plastic and not painted. I may give it a very light grey primer coat first. I am going to use SCII.

I plan on using, if I can find all of them:

Loco Black
Harbor Mist Gray
SP Dark Gray
SP Lettering Gray (for smoke box & firebox)
UP Yellow (not new UP yellow)

Thanks again for the assistance and be well,
Carl

@carlso  If you can find them, look closely at prototype photos of UP TTG engines.   Early on, the smokeboxes did indeed acquire the look of SP Lettering Gray, but later, if you look closely, you'll see the sides of the smokebox are much darker, and only the front is still the color of SP Lettering Gray...usually this darker color on the smokebox sides is on engines with the smoke lifters applied.

Also, to get "the look" right, most models have to have the shiny tire sides painted black.

The Challengers were painted TTG for the least amount of time out of all of UP's steam locomotives that received this paint job.  The scheme started officially in December of 1946 with a few locomotive being painted several months earlier with "Silver Gray" (more of a slighty grayish white...no metallic look whatsoever) which was changed to Amour Yellow until mid 1949 when the stripes were changed back to "Silver Gray"...which got its name changed to "Striping Gray" even though the paint remained the same.  Most railroad maintainers and crew referred to this mid-1949 TTG scheme with the Striping Gray stripes as the "White" scheme, giving evidence to the near-white quality of this color.

Although a few Challengers may have been painted with the "White" stripes in mid-1949, official records tell us that all Challengers were started to be repainted into the later "All Black" scheme in May of 1949 at subsequent regularly scheduled maintenance shoppings.

So, the total time that Challengers were in the TTG scheme was between December of 1946 until May of 1949...essentially only 2.5 years, with a total of only 10 Challengers being painted TTG.

For those interested in this iconic UP paint scheme for other UP steam engines, there were three other types painted into TTG.  They were:
(1) The Northerns:  45 Class FEF 4-8-4's were painted into the TTG Scheme with Armour Yellow stripes starting in April of 1946, received "white" stripes in May of 1949, and were repainted into "All Black" starting in October of 1952
(2) The Mountains: 60 Class MT 4-8-2's were painted into the TTG Scheme with Armour Yellow stripes starting in June of 1947, received "white" stripes in May of 1949, and were repainted into "All Black" starting in  October of 1954
(3) The Pacifics: 14 Class P 4-6-2's were painted into the TTG Scheme with Armour Yellow stripes starting in May of 1947, received "white" stripes in May of 1949, and were repainted into "All Black" starting in November of 1951

Photos can be fairly easily found of all four types of locomotives wearing TTG pulling both passenger trains as well as in freight service.

For asshats concerned about a particular engine and exactly how it looked with both paint and equipment, I would suggest finding a dated photo or two of an engine in TTG...look carefully at its equipment (such as what type of feedwater heater the engine is equipped with in the photo, smoke deflectors or not, smoke "fins" on top of steam dome and cab or not, double stack (either cast or welded) or not, etc...) and paint accordingly.

The UP was in the midst of a major change in its locomotive roster from the mid 40's through 1957, and supported their steam program very well until they pulled the plug on it in 1959, with steam engines being well-maintained and modernized right up until the day their fires were put out...which makes it fairly easy to date photos if certain types of equipment can be observed on them or not.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[carlso]

Thank you Bob.  I truly appreciate your railroad knowledge and especially your U.P knowledge.

I have pretty much given up on finding SP Lettering Gray so I will have to find another shade.  I am not sure if there is enough shade difference between UP Harbor Mist Gray and SP Dark Lark Gray. I am going to do yellow stripe version. Appreciate the tip regarding smoke box. I saw that in some picture and thought the side looked darker than the door but thought I was just seeing things. I was not aware of smoke fins.

I am planning on doing #3984. I have read reference that says it was painted in TTG , & yellow and had smoke lifters.  I have found some images of various models but not the 1:1. The only pictures I have found of a 1:1 is #3977. I guess I could do that number. I have darkened the drivers sides as well as the rods.

Thanks again and stay well,
Carl

[Point353]

3984 - but not in TTG:

[carlso]

Thanks Point,

I had not found that one of 3984. Here is an image of a model 3984 in TTG. Looks pretty good to me...............