MTL SW1500 - Anybody make a PnP decoder other than Digitrax and TCS? ...

[jdcolombo]

LOL, I actually think that the ZIMO English small decoder manual is actually quite good.  It is pretty thorough and detailed. I find Digitrax manual to be horrible.

Yes, it is detailed and very comprehensive - and that's part of the problem.  A lot of technical detail, with everything connected to particular bits of a particular CV.  If you're a DCC expert and familiar with binary programming language, then the manual is an excellent source of information.  If you are a consumer who didn't study electrical engineering and/or practiced writing computer code in machine language, well, good luck.

Actually, though, I shouldn't beat up Zimo too much - most decoder manuals suck for non-technical end users.  You are absolutely right that Digitrax is particularly suck-y.  One of these days, someone will write a DCC manual that is organized in a "how to" fashion, with clear step-by-step processes and examples.  E.g., "How to program a 4-digit Address";  "How to change what a function button does";  "How to make your headlight stay on in both directions";  "How to make your headlight dim when the engine is stopped";  "How to adjust the top speed of your locomotive";  Etc.  Then do a "technical reference" manual for all the techno-folks out there.  I view the Zimo manual as an excellent technical reference manual, but not a good manual for a non-technical end user.

Part of this isn't the decoder manufacturer's fault - it is the fault of the ancient interfaces we are forced to use by our DCC equipment.  I suspect that programming a Zimo decoder is really pretty easy using their MX10 and MXULF.  Certainly ESU decoders are a lot easier to program with the ECOS command station and/or the Lok Programmer.  Maybe one day someone will come up with a voice-activated programming system:

"Alexa, please program this decoder so that the headlight stays on in both directions and observes Rule 17 lighting."  [Wait 10 seconds].  "I have programmed the decoder so that the headlight stays on in both directions and observes Rule 17 lighting.  May I do anything else for you?"

 

John C.

[peteski]

John,
The way I see it, there is no possible way to write a "DCC programming for dummies' type of a manual which will clearly and easily describe programming things like 4-digit address and lighting functions.

DCC was developed by geeks and when on-chip storage and processing power was almost non-exisitant. So the design is squeezes most out of what was then available, which makes the desig needlesly complex by squeezing multiple functions in single CVs or doing funky stuff with addressing.

Manually figuring out a 4-digit address will always require some mathematical gyrations just to set the address itself, then a single bit in CV29 needs to be modified (without disturbing other bits) to enable 4-digit address (also requiring more gyrations from the end-user).  To that add the silliness of Digitrax forcing the use of short address for addresses <128 (even if you try to use long address for those) and things get even more complicated.

Lighting features or effects (using the function outputs) also seems to have been implemented differently by various manufacturers so there is no easy or universal answer which will work for all brands of decoders. 

[Philip H]

@peteski I disagree. Based on the many stories here and elsewhere of how many people can call these companies and get walked through their programming issues successfully, the manuals can be translated to less technical language. We all get that you don't need it done for you in most cases, but I am reasonably sure it's possible.

[jdcolombo]

Yeah, I disagree too - mostly.  Peteski is correct that some things, like programming the 4-digit address, could not be simplified in a manual.  That's a programming interface problem, but it's actually already been solved by most command station manufacturers.  For the Digitrax DCS200, for example, you enter programming mode for the 2-digit address, press the right throttle button, it says "4 digit add", you enter that, press "enter" and it translates that into the necessary programming for CV17 and 18; then it asks you politely if you would like to turn on 4-digit addressing; if you press "Y" on the throttle, it automatically sets the correct bit in CV29 for you.

So like I said, some of this is just ancient interface problems that could be solved by a better programming interface.  The Lok Programmer, for example, has drop-down boxes for function button assignments, a vastly superior method for doing this than having to look up values in a function key assignment table.

But some could also be done by the decoder manufacturers.  Take a look, for example, at Zimo's manual on special lighting effects.  This is what it says:

Special effects can be assigned to a total of 10 function outputs with
CV’s #125, #126, #127 … #132, #159, #160
 for F0fr., F0rear. FO1 ...... FO6 , FO7 , FO8
The values for these special effect CV’s contain the actual 6-Bit special effects code and the 2-Bit directions code
 Bits 1,0 = 00: bidirectional (active in both directions)
= 01: active in forward direction only (+ 1)
= 10: active in reverse direction only (+ 2)

Bits 7 ... 2
= 000000xx No effect, except for direction = (0), 1, 2 (bidirectional, forward, reverse)
= 000001xx Mars light + direction = 4, 5, 6 (bidirectional, forward, reverse)
= 000010xx Random flicker + direction = 8, 9, 10 (ditto, ditto, ditto)
= 000011xx Flashing headlight + direction = 12, 13, 14 …
= 000100xx Single pulse strobe + direction = 16, 17, 18
= 000101xx Double pulse strobe + direction = 20, 21, 22
= 000110xx Rotary beacon + direction = 24, 25, 26
= 000111xx Gyralite + direction = 28, 29, 30
= 001000xx Ditch light type 1, right + direction = 32, 33, 34
= 001001xx Ditch light type 1, left + direction = 36, 37, 38
= 001010xx Ditch light type 2, right + direction = 40, 41, 42
= 001011xx Ditch light type 2, left. + direction = 44, 45, 46

OK.  I'm reasonably intelligent, and have a lot of experience programming decoders.  So I look at this and after a couple of minutes realize that to have the headlight act as a Mars light in the forward direction, you program CV125 with the decimal value of "5".

But the manual could be written this way:

Special Lighting Effects:
Special lighting effects are available for all the function outputs, as follows.
1.  For the headlight, program CV125 to the following value for the effect you desire:
a.  Mars Light effect, both directions, enter the value 4
b.  Mars Light effect, forward direction only, enter the value 5
c.  Mars light effect, reverse direction only, enter the value 6
[ETC]

2.  For the backup light, program CV126 to the following value for the effect you desire:
[ETC].

Yes, this would take a lot more words and much of the information would be repetitive (it could be done in a table to save space), but I think this would make a lot more sense to a reasonably smart, but not binary-computer-programming-savvy end user.

But I still think we need Alexa.  You tell Alexa what command station you have, and what kind of decoder you are trying to program.  Then tell her what you are trying to do.  Alexa does it, because she has a list of all the command stations available and all the decoders and their programming interfaces.  This is simply adding a bit of artificial intelligence to JMRI, which already does this to some extent (but try doing function key assignments in JMRI with that god-awful table). 

"Alexa, I need to program a Zimo MX621".
"Thank you, John.  What would you like to do?"
"I want to program the headlight for a Mars light effect, forward direction only"
[Wait 10 seconds]
"The programming is complete, John.  Is there some additional programming you would like to do?"
"No, Alexa, I am done with this decoder, thank you."
"My pleasure, John."

OK - maybe a LITTLE Sci-fi-ish, but if I can tell Alexa "Add toasting bread to my shopping list" and she can do that, I think this kind of thing would be possible. 

John C.

[peteski]

I missed your point John.  I thought you wanted an all-encompassing and manufacturer-agnostic manual of "how-to" do things like 4-digit address or how to program headlights.

I do agree with you all that it would be great if the DCC manufacturers came out with clearer more basic (non-geek) instructions with lots of specific examples of how to program the basic functions of their decoders.  That would be very helpful to all.  TCS sort of does that in some of their documentation (the 1-page guides) but I still find it lacking clarity.

As an alternative, if manufacturers provided some online calculators of what needs to be programmed to get functionality "X", that would be helpful too. SOme manufacturers already have those on their websites, but more woudl be welcome.

Then of course we have JMRI (which it itself takes some time to get familiar with) and manufacturer-specific DCC programmers which make things somewhat easier. But we do need more and simpler ways to program the decoders.

[jdcolombo]

Hi Peteski.

Hmmm.

For some reason, part of my previous post didn't make it into the message.   I've added it now.  But you got my drift anyway.  And it appears we largely agree.

I'm still pushing for Alexa.

 

John

[peteski]

Hi Peteski.

Hmmm.

For some reason, part of my previous post didn't make it into the message.   I've added it now.  But you got my drift anyway.  And it appears we largely agree.

I'm still pushing for Alexa.

 

John

No Echos in my house.  I don't want a computer spy listening to what I do. 

[sp org div]

Forever grateful to those that have brought (and fought for) JMRI to the hobby...
Sure makes the DCC world a happier place.
Oh and those WCLAY / LAWCY 150 car drags were always a favorite!