Anyone good at DCC? Need help with an important Loco!!

[VonRyan]

Ok, here's the predicament...

I recently got new contact wipers for my Graham Farish, British Railways Class 04, 3-axle diesel shunter, which was my Christmas present 2 years ago. I myself put out 60 dollars to have a TCS Z2 fitted into the loco, of which the installer did a bit of a poor job when i took a look at it since the wires were not cut to length, but rather bunched and taped, thus causing the whole metal body shell to get a slight twist in it, plus he lost two of the four screws that held the shell on, making the problem worse, but i did manage to get replacement screws as well.

As it is, the loco is no longer working... the new contacts are in place, the decoder wires shortened and taped down with kapton in a more orderly fashion (how i got kapton tape i have no clue...).

I need someone who is good with DCC and decoder hardwiring to take a look at the loco and see if the decoder is fried or not... if so then i guess it'll continue to collect dust, if the decoder is not shot i need the decoder's connections examined to see if everything is in order and if needed put in order and the loco tested to make sure it runs...

I can pay postage to and back to whomever can get my only UK engine up and running once more, especially since it only has about 6 hours of run time on it thus far.

If all possible, i'd like to have the loco back by the day before thanksgiving since thanksgiving weekend my GWR themed module is booked to be part of the NJS section of the combined N-Trak layout at the Greenberg show in Edison, NJ.
The class 04 is the only UK loco i own and without the loco, the module is literally incomplete.

Thanks all!

-Cody F.

[DKS]

Get in touch with Lee Weldon (wm3798). He's our resident DCC installer dude.

[billvassar45]

just a suggestion would send it to tony's train exchange as far as i am concerend they are the best in the bussiness for DCC and this is not a commercial for them they are just the best.

[Bob Bufkin]

I second the recommendation for Lee.  He's done a bunch of mine and I've never had any problems.

[wm3798]

While I appreciate the referrals, I have to politely demure.  I'm currently slogging through a pretty hefty load of back logged installs, and my present situation as a transient gypsy has made it impossible to take on new work.  So at least until after the first of the year, please give me some time to catch up.

Thanks.
Lee

[VonRyan]

As it is, i cannot afford to send it out to any place that charges for their services
Sending it back to Graham Farish was a dead option two days before i got the loco back from the DCC installer (who has since disappeared) because the warranty ran out, plus the fact that DCC was installed in it and since Graham Farish does not list it on their site as "DCC Ready" they will not even look at it.
It has just turned into hole that i throw money into, and never get anything out of it... I had to get someone who lives in the UK to order the contacts for me because bachmann UK never emailed me back when i emailed their parts department to try and get new contact wipers.
Honestly i'm on the verge of throwing my class 04 at a cement wall... it pains me that much to just have it sit around and collect dust... but with no money, i don't have many options.
I'm hoping someone who isn't busy (as i feel guilty when i bother folks) and is comfortable with hardwired decoders, and locomotives of foreign prototypes that (and particularly small locomotives at that) can try and do what need be done to get this loco back to working order, and if it's not possible tell me which wall to throw it at.

-Cody F.

[peteski]

Your problem description (not working) is vague. Were you the person who neatened-up the wiring?  Did you double checked your work?

Can you see the decoder on the programming track (read its CVs)?  DO the headlights work (if there are headlights)?

I'm not sure what are TCS default settings (as far as DC-compatibility), but did you try it on DC power? A simple 9V battery is perfect for DC testing of locomotives. Just touch its terminals to the wheels (or to the split chassis if the shell is removed and this is a split-chassis loco).

[VonRyan]

Your problem description (not working) is vague. Were you the person who neatened-up the wiring?  Did you double checked your work?

Can you see the decoder on the programming track (read its CVs)?  DO the headlights work (if there are headlights)?

I'm not sure what are TCS default settings (as far as DC-compatibility), but did you try it on DC power? A simple 9V battery is perfect for DC testing of locomotives. Just touch its terminals to the wheels (or to the split chassis if the shell is removed and this is a split-chassis loco).

I neatened up the wiring up myself, and everything went back to where it was originally connected. The decoder was pre-programed by the guy who installed the decoder to correspond to the engine number. I had to further remove the three wires that were intended for the lights (since UK outline locos don't have fixed headlights (more recent mainline locos do, but smaller locos still do not) ) since he roughly chopped them off, leaving space-hogging tails. I don't believe that the decoder is dual mode, and the loco doesn't exactly have much of a chassis, hence why the body shell is metal.

As for a more exact description, the loco simply does not work. I put it on the track and it doesn't run, doesn't short out the track, doesn't do anything. I tightened the carrier screw (takes power from one contact to the motor decoder, and then tried loosening the same screw since there is apparently a position in which it carries power, too loose it doesn't, and too tight and it can possibly short the loco/track out... Which it didn't which makes me wonder if the decoder somehow got fried.

I was debating whether or not to bypass the whole "screws carrying the power" thing and just solder wires in place of them to insure reliability, especially with such a short wheelbase (very short... the loco has tiny wheels). But i think i'd be better off having someone with knowledge take a look at it before i potentially cause it more harm than i may already have...
Hopefully that all helps...

-Cody F.

[peteski]

Cody, one of my questions was "Can you see the decoder on the programming track (read its CVs)?"  It is important to know whether the decoder is seen by the DCC system.

If you look at the specs of your decoder http://tcsdcc.com/public_html/Customer_Content/Literature/Decoders/Z_Scale/Z2/Z2.pdf It does work under DC control (if it is enabled in CV29 - which it is by default).

So, give it a try on DC too.  IN your case, the black and red wires should be connected to the wheel pickups and orange and gray should be connected to the motor. All the other wires should be unconnected to anything.  The motor terminals should not be connected to anything but the gray and orange wires.  It's that simple.

[Mr Z]

A lot of Graham Farish locos can be tricky because it can be extremely hard to isolate the motor brushes from the frame. What brand of new contacts did you use for this loco?

I have a number of Farish units but not a Class 4 so I'm familiar with how some of these are put together. I've dcc'd a number of my U.S. locos but have not tackled any of my U.K. locos. Isolating the frame has always put me off trying.

Possible good news first: if you purchased the TCS decoder within the last year you may be able to replace it if it really is fried. Check the warranty tab at www.tcsdcc.com.

If you can't get the dcc to work, would you be happy to get it back to working under DC? One issue I've had with some of the Farish older designs is that the frame is actually part of the motor. The magnet sits at the top of the frame and two metal plates surround the motor armature. If the engine was reassembled incorrectly you can have the armature binding on these metal plates very easily. Farish also uses bronze wipers to pick up power from the wheels, this could also be a source of problems. I know that Bachmann (they now own Graham Farish) has been gradually updating their designs but your engine might still be of the older design.

Isolating the motor brushes on the older design is a real bear because the lower motor brush fits into a brass sleeve which sits directly in the lower metal frame. At least one of the solutions I've seen is to replace the brush sleeve with one made of an insulating material.

Martin Z

[avel]

Hey send it to me, I'll take a look at it. Currently unemployed anyway. Check your messages.

[VonRyan]

A lot of Graham Farish locos can be tricky because it can be extremely hard to isolate the motor brushes from the frame. What brand of new contacts did you use for this loco?

I have a number of Farish units but not a Class 4 so I'm familiar with how some of these are put together. I've dcc'd a number of my U.S. locos but have not tackled any of my U.K. locos. Isolating the frame has always put me off trying.

Possible good news first: if you purchased the TCS decoder within the last year you may be able to replace it if it really is fried. Check the warranty tab at www.tcsdcc.com.

If you can't get the dcc to work, would you be happy to get it back to working under DC? One issue I've had with some of the Farish older designs is that the frame is actually part of the motor. The magnet sits at the top of the frame and two metal plates surround the motor armature. If the engine was reassembled incorrectly you can have the armature binding on these metal plates very easily. Farish also uses bronze wipers to pick up power from the wheels, this could also be a source of problems. I know that Bachmann (they now own Graham Farish) has been gradually updating their designs but your engine might still be of the older design.

Isolating the motor brushes on the older design is a real bear because the lower motor brush fits into a brass sleeve which sits directly in the lower metal frame. At least one of the solutions I've seen is to replace the brush sleeve with one made of an insulating material.

Martin Z

The motor is a can motor, so it is self contained. I think the frame itself only carries power from one of the sets of contacts. The contacts are Graham Farish's own since they are the only people who make them. Their class 4 just came out a few years ago, i have no idea exactly what year.

Cody, one of my questions was "Can you see the decoder on the programming track (read its CVs)?"  It is important to know whether the decoder is seen by the DCC system.

If you look at the specs of your decoder http://tcsdcc.com/public_html/Customer_Content/Literature/Decoders/Z_Scale/Z2/Z2.pdf It does work under DC control (if it is enabled in CV29 - which it is by default).

So, give it a try on DC too.  IN your case, the black and red wires should be connected to the wheel pickups and orange and gray should be connected to the motor. All the other wires should be unconnected to anything.  The motor terminals should not be connected to anything but the gray and orange wires.  It's that simple.

I haven't tried reader the CVs, let alone put it on a programming track. I figured that i would have run once i put it all back together since the decoder was already programmed.


-Cody F.

[peteski]

I haven't tried reader the CVs, let alone put it on a programming track. I figured that i would have run once i put it all back together since the decoder was already programmed.


-Cody F.

Cody,
what I'm trying to do here is called "troubleshooting".  By following certain logical sequence of steps, one can try to pinpoint the cause of the problem.   What you are doing is called "shotgunning".      I just figured that if you were able to fix this problem by yourself (with some online assistance from the group members like me), that would be the quickest and least expensive approach.

Anyways, it looks like avel has some spare time to help you out.  BTW, using a programming track to verify decoder installation is *ALWAYS* the recommended way to go. Why?  Because even if the decoder is mis-wired, the limited current of the programming track will not blow it up.  No so on the main track. Doing that can easily blow out a decoder if it is mis-wired.