Memo To The Challenge R&D Team

[mellow-mike]

Firstly, I'm glad that my idea for a broader, less inter-competitive Challenge was met with positive reaction. Actually, I was kind of amazed it did.

Anyhow, back to the discussion of commentaries...

So I say if you see a challenge car up that you don't think looks as good as you or tom, dick or harry could of did it, still give them a decent comment and maybe give them some good critisism to try and help there modeling.

I thought we were giving decent criticism...

For example...

I think MRKluke has it this month.  Gonzo's is second place, but the weathering is not dark enough in my opinion.  Perfect pattern-wise, just too light.

I gave it to Steve.  His rust needs more sharp, contrasting edges with the yellow paint... but he's the only one that addressed the stir-up steps.

And from the month before...

...the only things that mark it down a tiny smidgeon in my scoring was the yellow end panel  looks just a little 'patchy' & the door actually looks TOO crusty compared against the prototype ... that & the middle section of the roof could be a little more blended in, I think

I liked both entries, and I applaud Hegstad for attempting the replacement panel, but I wasn't quite convinced. It looked a little uneven to me.

I went with Red's, that yellow panel is a little "brushy" for me.

Even 3rdrail is not above mentioning there are flaws, albeit tiny as of yet unnamed ones...

I'm gonna have to think on this one a couple of days. They're all exceptionally good, but each has a different tiny flaw.

I don't think any entrant gains anything from someone saying "They're ALL winners this month... I can't decide".  Perhaps that's all John wants to hear the month he has a car in a Challenge. "Good job by everyone!"

This has been argued before - but I believe showing the non-winners their weaknesses is as important as having the winner volunteer to tell how he did his car - in terms of other viewers looking for weathering advice. I'm sure that with dozens and dozens of members here, there are those who never enter whose work approximates the "non-winners" in a given Challenge. You know.... "Come to think of it, my own rust patches look like chocolate smudges, now that I hear what was said about Gordon's car." If all someone hears is "Nice car" when around friends, then maybe that's based on a curve. Your wife thinking you are a talented modeler. The guys at the modular club who run un-weathered trains. Having to go up against the likes of Rich Yourstone, Eddie Ehrman, Jeff Kluke, or Tom Mann, can alter that perception. Even more so when you have the prototype photo beside your model photo in a Challenge for comparison. Not all awesome weatherers were always awesome weatherers. Jeff will be the first to tell you how much he's improved in just the past three years. The idea is to learn not just by studying someone more advanced than you - but also to drop bad habits - or to change mediums when it's apparent you rely on ink and alcohol alone, or just cake your boxcars in powders and DullCote.

Personally, I am not judging (there's that word many hate) an entry against what I can do - although you may think that. Many times though, I end up comparing one entry against another entry, which shouldn't be the primary focus. If there are three entries doing the same prototype car's weathering - then it should be how close each modeler came to replicating the target. In the end, one guy did it better, so we won't escape that "competition" aspect. (In fact - don't they say "Who takes the prize this month...?"). It's all about assessing the skills of the entrants used in producing a scale copy of a given real car. If a model hits on all cylinders - then the modeler's skills are praised. That's how it works in my mind. If his car looks vaguely like the target photo - then he deserves to know what held him back. Not have a complete lack of negative commentary.

Saying "I thought the surface rust could've been better on Bruce's car" isn't defining WHY it needs improvement. If I see "elbow scab" rust... or glossy "BBQ sauce" rust... visible decal film... or olive-green couplers... then I will try to convey the weakness in such a way that it's not lost on anyone. I don't want to be the Simon Cowell of Railwire - that's simply being harsh  for audience impact - but I don't want to be the ineffectual cheerleader who merely says: "Gosh! They're all look so real - I can't decide".

There's bound to be feelings of humiliation with such a range of skill displayed each month. Steve may not like only getting a couple votes for his efforts, and my commentary may be salt in the wound, but his vow of coming back to topple the big winners someday means he hasn't gotten discouraged to the point of taking an indefinite leave of absence. Maybe, armed with the critique, Steve will better himself in the weak areas, and keep submitting cars until I finally say: "Incredible job, Steve, I can spot no flaws on this one. It really looks like the prototype this month!". The monkey will have been lifted off his back.

I understand there is an element of fun that encourages some to enter. "This car sounds like fun - count me in this month". But others are ego driven, and want the forum to know that they are a weathering wizard, capable of replicating anything Tom posts. It's a mixed bag of motivation. As a commentator, I cannot categorically grade the two guys who are dead serious about their work, while only gingerly thanking the third for participating. If you're on the table - you get the same treatment as the first two. We can't have an "advanced modeler" bracket and a "casual modeler" bracket. But, as B-Sop suggested, there can be a separate non-head-to-head section in another thread for those who aren't ready for the Squint Squad assessment, but still want to try a Challenge car, perhaps without competition or critique.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Haven't we beaten the commentary horse enough?

[tokenbrit]

Haven't we beaten the commentary horse enough?

If we have, then isn't that an admission that we've beaten the challenge horse enough too?

The lament that there's too litle participation either in the number of entries, number of votes, number of comments, or number of congratulations seems to contine monthly. If the concensus is that there's not enough participation then there should be commentary to discuss how we could make it better, what we should keep, or should the horse be put out to pasture ... or turned into glue?

[John]

I don't think any entrant gains anything from someone saying "They're ALL winners this month... I can't decide".  Perhaps that's all John wants to hear the month he has a car in a Challenge. "Good job by everyone!"

Mike .. I am a big boy .. I can take criticism as well as the next guy .. but, lets face it .. I am not the master weatherer that you are. I don't need you or anyone else to tell me "nice job". I have been around this hobby long enough to know when something looks like crap .. I am my own worst critic. But to be subjected to your ridicule several months in a row, in the condescending way that you provided feedback totally turned me off to the challenge .. there is no challenge to constantly beating my head against the wall. Sooner or later we all realize that there are some things we should not do .. My point came when you critiqued one of my cars with the comment about it looking like I poured sludge over it .. yea .. it looked like crap .. and everyone could see it .. I was aware of its short comings .. but .. I still posted it for people to see ..

And I do like your ideas for modifying the challenge .. but .. thats up to the people who run it ..

So .. my challenge to you, other than dropping in here periodically and dropping a hand grenade or two, is to go out and buy the monthly car, weather it up like the prototype, submit it at the end of the month, and let us vote on it. Someone might even say "good job" .. of course, there is always the chance that someone could say -" geee .. looks like you poured sludge all over it .."

[3rdrail]

Even 3rdrail is not above mentioning there are flaws, albeit tiny as of yet unnamed ones...

I'm gonna have to think on this one a couple of days. They're all exceptionally good, but each has a different tiny flaw.

Yes, but I was not planning to point those flaws out, as I am sure that each modeler is well aware of the flaws in his model. If you think that those submitting entries are not aware of the shortcomings of those entries, you may know a great deal about weathering a model, but have a lot to learn about other modelers. I know my models are far from perfect, but they suit the amount of time and effort I am willing to put into them. Many of them even have the wrong dimensions (gasp)! 

[quadk]

Allright guys there's a lot of bad feelings flying around which is good to get out sometimes, but I think that everyone has gotten the point of what is going on. I would suggest that we move on now and throw this new idea around about the challenges and move forward from here and forget what has just happened in the past.

[mellow-mike]

Haven't we beaten the commentary horse enough?

Yes. My bad.

I was sort of airing it all out for the new guy, Ken. Sorry to subject everyone else to it again.

As to the talent pool which the Challenge now showcases - what if it's done like baseball. If you feel like you are ready for the Majors - post your car in the regular Challenge. If you have any doubts - or you want to test the waters - or you just want to do a car for fun - post it to the farm league (non-pro thread bsoplinger is kicking around) and get your "back pats only" there.

[Iain]

Well, I ordered this month's car.  I hope that it will arrive in time and with the decals.  I really don't want to have to go somewhere else and pay shipping all over again for a sheet of decals, thus if I don't get 'em then I will sit another one out and procede to detail and paint the car to match my small fleet of similar covered hoppers, ie Boondoggle 'n Offschedule.  Of course, I could just take a sharpy and write 'CR.'  I REALLY need right now!


I like the idea of just a generic car type being the challenge.  Who knows, it may give me an excuse to weather the cars I already have.