Author Topic: Micro Engineering is looking for feedback on its products..  (Read 1780 times)

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peteski

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Re: Micro Engineering is looking for feedback on its products..
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2024, 05:58:54 PM »
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Does ME actually roll their own rail, or they purchase it from an outside supplier?
. . . 42 . . .

Rossford Yard

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Re: Micro Engineering is looking for feedback on its products..
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2024, 10:39:35 AM »
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Eh not sure the point of spamming stuff non contructively like that. Their wheelhouse is flex and associated infrastructure. So I would personally keep it to flextrack relevant features.

My own would simply be.
-DCC compatibility out of the box
-Easy Frog connection
-A decent variety turnout sizes. With 1 or 2 curve types.

I'm confused, which is not hard to do, but you say you would request flex track features, and then list 3 for turnouts.

Rossford Yard

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Re: Micro Engineering is looking for feedback on its products..
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2024, 10:53:22 AM »
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In my opinion, Micro Engineering needs to make their track more prototypical, the opposite of making it more like KATO UNITRACK... :facepalm:

I would want my track designed by Kelly Johnson rather than Orville and Wilbur

Micro Engineering is already the YF-22 of N-scale track products.  The best, but needs more development/refinement and more of it.

The idea of casting integral "ballast" into it to "improve" it is a really bad idea.  Sure, let's make the most prototypical looking N-scale track into N-gauge toy track...THAT makes sense!

I suggested to them making their spikeheads smaller...like the original Rail Craft flex, squaring up the relief and the edges on their ties, going back to uneven ties and larger tie plates and retaining the stiffness...which is a good thing IMO.

I also suggested that they design trackage that has a rail height of 0.046"...Code46...that duplicates the height of scaled-down A.R.E.A. 136 lb mainline rail. Y'know...ACTUAL N-scale rail rather than just small HO scale rail.

I also suggested that they design their N-scale rails to have a prototypically rounded railhead rather than the squared-off one they have now on both their Code55 and Code40 rails...which makes the rails look wider than they really are.

I didn't get too deep into turnout design much but I recommended using tri-planed point rails, which would mean the stock rails don't need to have their inner sides filed flat...y'know...make 'em like the prototype does, and etch point rail heel hinges rather than use rail joiners.  I recommended they produce a #9 and a #11 along with a couple of appropriate crotch-frog turnouts (model railroaders like to call them "wyes") and a couple of large radius curved turnouts.

I also suggested that since their frogs are cast, why not include nut & bolt detail on the sides of the frogs???  Makes sense to me.

That's about it.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

You obviously replied before reading or comprehending my post, but that's fine.

I obviously can't force ME to do anything, and IF I won the lottery and wanted to do something for the N community, without hope of profit, track would probably be it.  The idea of track in flexible roadbed has been done in HO, although it didn't sell well.  I would be counting on newer tech to be able to make it more realistic than could be made before.  I understand it may be a pipe dream for ME or me, but I was always told to never assume that anything that hasn't been invented yet won't be invented because we have already reached perfection. Given a 50 year trend to more reliable, easy to install, and RTR, to me this would be the next logical step.  Especially to appeal to the next gen, not guys like you who are old hands and like and understand how to do most of the difficult tasks in MR, mostly through trial and error.

As to your points, they seem good, especially the rail profile and more rail and frog detail, assuming as I did that they wouldn't be reusing some of their molds.  However, and I ask because I don't know, would code 46 take the current batch of either MT or metal wheels, or would we have to redo all our own wheels once again (if you are old enough to have started with pizza cutters?

Lastly, the other existing trend has been to more prototypical detail like you request.  I can't be sure but I wonder where the sales would be - to the top 10% of modelers who would be replacing track similar to how we upgrade old rolling stock to new or to an unknown number of potential newbs?  I understand that I am expanding the scope of this thread, so I'll back out now.

Rivet Miscounter

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Re: Micro Engineering is looking for feedback on its products..
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2024, 12:26:38 PM »
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I just responded.   My main points:
-Address availability issues in N which were prevalent when I got into N in the late 90s and never really got better.
-Produce consistently available DCC-friendly turnouts
-Work on selection.  At least a Number 10, possibly some crossings, and a Code 40 Number 6.
Doug

JeffB

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Re: Micro Engineering is looking for feedback on its products..
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2024, 01:29:49 PM »
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Does ME actually roll their own rail, or they purchase it from an outside supplier?

Last I'd heard they purchase rail from the UK.  But that's info that's many years old, from a former employee.

Jeff

JeffB

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Re: Micro Engineering is looking for feedback on its products..
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2024, 01:37:18 PM »
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In my opinion, Micro Engineering needs to make their track more prototypical, the opposite of making it more like KATO UNITRACK... :facepalm:

I would want my track designed by Kelly Johnson rather than Orville and Wilbur

Micro Engineering is already the YF-22 of N-scale track products.  The best, but needs more development/refinement and more of it.

I didn't get too deep into turnout design much but I recommended using tri-planed point rails, which would mean the stock rails don't need to have their inner sides filed flat...y'know...make 'em like the prototype does, and etch point rail heel hinges rather than use rail joiners.  I recommended they produce a #9 and a #11 along with a couple of appropriate crotch-frog turnouts (model railroaders like to call them "wyes") and a couple of large radius curved turnouts.

I also suggested that since their frogs are cast, why not include nut & bolt detail on the sides of the frogs???  Makes sense to me.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

I don't have a dog it this hunt so to speak, but "tri-planed" rails isn't going to happen with Code 40 or 55 rail (or even larger sizes for that matter).  I'm sure some prototypically minded (nutcase) out there has done it, but don't hold your breath on seeing it on a commercial product.  Far too complicated of an operation to be cost effective, or at the very least, it would require a lot of manual input, even with CNC machining being utilized.

More detailed cast frogs is a good idea...  I would also argue for that they're more scale appropriate, rather than just one size fits all.  Another request...  That they cast them in nickel silver, not the material that they currently use.

It can be done...  Fast Tracks very expensive HO scale crossing kits utilize 3D printed, lost resin cast crossing frogs in nickel silver.  Highly detailed, very well done castings.  So it shouldn't be out of the realm of possibility for ME to do it as well.

But going back to my first point...  Planed point rails.  Perhaps something could be done for that with 3D printing, rather than machining actual rail.  Something to think about!

Jeff



robert3985

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Re: Micro Engineering is looking for feedback on its products..
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2024, 03:26:32 PM »
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You obviously replied before reading or comprehending my post, but that's fine.

I obviously can't force ME to do anything, and IF I won the lottery and wanted to do something for the N community, without hope of profit, track would probably be it.  The idea of track in flexible roadbed has been done in HO, although it didn't sell well.  I would be counting on newer tech to be able to make it more realistic than could be made before.  I understand it may be a pipe dream for ME or me, but I was always told to never assume that anything that hasn't been invented yet won't be invented because we have already reached perfection. Given a 50 year trend to more reliable, easy to install, and RTR, to me this would be the next logical step.  Especially to appeal to the next gen, not guys like you who are old hands and like and understand how to do most of the difficult tasks in MR, mostly through trial and error.

As to your points, they seem good, especially the rail profile and more rail and frog detail, assuming as I did that they wouldn't be reusing some of their molds.  However, and I ask because I don't know, would code 46 take the current batch of either MT or metal wheels, or would we have to redo all our own wheels once again (if you are old enough to have started with pizza cutters?

Lastly, the other existing trend has been to more prototypical detail like you request.  I can't be sure but I wonder where the sales would be - to the top 10% of modelers who would be replacing track similar to how we upgrade old rolling stock to new or to an unknown number of potential newbs?  I understand that I am expanding the scope of this thread, so I'll back out now.

I'm 74, I've been N-scaling since the middle 1970's.

I started turning down MTL pizza-cutter 3-piece wheel sets (with the metal axles) on my lathe in the early 1980's, and turning them into lo-pro wheelsets, which I ran on the club's Ntrak modules without any problems with train lengths of over 100 cars during shows.

I got special permission from Jim Fitzgerald to use Rail Craft Code70 track on my Ntrak modules instead of being compelled to use the Ntrak "standard" Atlas80 track.

Because I would be using Code70 rails, I had to learn to hand-lay my turnouts, so I built them in Code70 following (1) an article by Gordy Odegard in the February 1976 issue of Model Railroader, and (2) using NMRA clearances.

Photo (1) Rail Craft Code70 flex track on my first Ntrak modules:


My second set of modules were built to my own modular standards, so I used Rail Craft Code55 flex on my mainlines and hand-laid Code40 PCB track for my sidings and branchline.

Photo (2) - Rail Craft Code55 mainlines with hand-laid Code40 PCB branchline trackage in the foreground:


For information's sake, the Code40 rail that Rail Craft, who is now Micro Engineering is making is actually 0.043"/0.044" tall, and the tallest pizza cutter flanges I've ever measured are 0.037" tall, leaving plenty of clearance on hand-laid Code40 PCB track to run without any flange interference.

For those who don't know, Rail Craft turned into Micro Engineering sometime in the late 1980's/early 1990's, using the same injection tooling until their N-scale injection tools wore out.  New tooling was made, but it wasn't identical to their original tooling and the new Micro Engineering N-scale track now had considerably bigger and taller spikeheads, and ties that were identically centered (unlike prototype practice) between the rails.  The taller spikeheads aren't a problem on ME Code55 N-scale track with pizza-cutter flanges, but...they ARE a major problem with their Code40 flex, and pizza-cutters won't even come close to running on it. Even shallow pizza-cutters like those on the first run Athearn Big Boys and early Kato engines won't run on it either.

My suggestion for scaled down 136 lb mainline rail (Code46) in N-scale was dependent on them re-tooling their injection tool with smaller, shorter spikeheads along with a few more improvements.  0.046" leaves 0.009" of clearance for running engines and cars with pizza cutters, which, unfortunately, isn't enough...even with spikeheads the same height as old Rail Craft Code40 flex, which had spikeheads only 0.010" tall.

On the other hand, Code46 rails, even with Micro Engineering's new bigger, taller spikeheads, would run today's non-pizza-cutter flanged wheelsets, so there would be no problem there.



Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore




robert3985

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Re: Micro Engineering is looking for feedback on its products..
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2024, 04:17:24 PM »
+1
I don't have a dog it this hunt so to speak, but "tri-planed" rails isn't going to happen with Code 40 or 55 rail (or even larger sizes for that matter).  I'm sure some prototypically minded (nutcase) out there has done it, but don't hold your breath on seeing it on a commercial product.  Far too complicated of an operation to be cost effective, or at the very least, it would require a lot of manual input, even with CNC machining being utilized.

More detailed cast frogs is a good idea...  I would also argue for that they're more scale appropriate, rather than just one size fits all.  Another request...  That they cast them in nickel silver, not the material that they currently use.

It can be done...  Fast Tracks very expensive HO scale crossing kits utilize 3D printed, lost resin cast crossing frogs in nickel silver.  Highly detailed, very well done castings.  So it shouldn't be out of the realm of possibility for ME to do it as well.

But going back to my first point...  Planed point rails.  Perhaps something could be done for that with 3D printing, rather than machining actual rail.  Something to think about!

Jeff


@JeffB  Hi Jeff! The reason I'm suggesting to Micro Engineering to go with tri-planed point rails is because I've been using commercially available Code55 and Code40 tri-planed point rails from proto87.com (Proto87 Stores) for at least a decade.

So, I guess I'm the "nutcase" that proves you completely wrong.

Although proto87.com mills their tri-planed point rails, they could be easily investment cast out of nickel silver, with integral throwbar attachment hardware and point rail heel hinges also.  This would greatly simplify assembly because they would essentially drop into that area of the model, with no filing (milling) of the adjacent stock rails needed, or precision placement of short rail joiners at the point rail heels.  Additionally, having the attachment points for the throwbar cast into the point rail toes would greatly strengthen this trouble spot that exists for all model turnouts, and additionally could be easily made to appear more prototypical than anything currently being manufactured with integrally cast-on nut & bolt details.

Has Micro Engineering stopped casting their frogs in nickel silver??  The two ME #6 turnouts that I have have nickel silver frogs.  Could you be referring to Atlas55's "mystery metal" frogs???

Photo (1) - Proto87.com's tri-planed point rails in Code55 on one of my UP center siding entrance/exit turnouts, and etched point rail heel hinges...


Photo (2) - Another turnout, another view...


Photo (3) - Inside of adjacent stock rails are not filed flat...


Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
« Last Edit: January 24, 2024, 04:20:37 PM by robert3985 »

JeffB

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Re: Micro Engineering is looking for feedback on its products..
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2024, 05:21:52 PM »
0


@JeffB  Hi Jeff! The reason I'm suggesting to Micro Engineering to go with tri-planed point rails is because I've been using commercially available Code55 and Code40 tri-planed point rails from proto87.com (Proto87 Stores) for at least a decade.

So, I guess I'm the "nutcase" that proves you completely wrong.

Although proto87.com mills their tri-planed point rails, they could be easily investment cast out of nickel silver, with integral throwbar attachment hardware and point rail heel hinges also.  This would greatly simplify assembly because they would essentially drop into that area of the model, with no filing (milling) of the adjacent stock rails needed, or precision placement of short rail joiners at the point rail heels.  Additionally, having the attachment points for the throwbar cast into the point rail toes would greatly strengthen this trouble spot that exists for all model turnouts, and additionally could be easily made to appear more prototypical than anything currently being manufactured with integrally cast-on nut & bolt details.

Has Micro Engineering stopped casting their frogs in nickel silver??  The two ME #6 turnouts that I have have nickel silver frogs.  Could you be referring to Atlas55's "mystery metal" frogs???

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

So you are! 

What do the planed point rails go for from Proto87? 

I have several ME turnouts and the frogs are not nickel silver.  Not sure exactly what metal it is, but it's not NS. 

But yeah, doing lost wax/resin "planed" points would be a great boon for modelers.

Jeff

Dave V

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Re: Micro Engineering is looking for feedback on its products..
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2024, 06:19:16 PM »
+1
My biggest complaint has been about the strength of the spikeheads, but short of making them from Kevlar, I don't know how they could make them stronger without also making them, well, you know...bigger. But they didn't ask me to solve the problem, just to identify areas for improvement.

I still prefer the ME HOn3 flex to the Peco HOn3 flex...though I prefer the Peco Unifrog turnouts in HOn3 to ME.

I just hope they never stop making the bridge flex track in N scale. That stuff is soooo good.

Hawghead

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Re: Micro Engineering is looking for feedback on its products..
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2024, 03:34:37 PM »
+1
I just finished filling out the survey and I'm surprised no one here mentioned their horrible website.  Most of my comments focused on improving accessibility/purchase of their products through their website.  Again all of my ME purchases center around flex-track, rail and spikes.

Scott
There's a prototype for everything.
If you can't make it perfect, make it adjustable.
DCC is not plug-n-play.

thomasjmdavis

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Re: Micro Engineering is looking for feedback on its products..
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2024, 08:26:40 PM »
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I just hope they never stop making the bridge flex track in N scale. That stuff is soooo good.
I told them the same thing.

Tom D.

I have a mind like a steel trap...a VERY rusty, old steel trap.

mike_lawyer

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Re: Micro Engineering is looking for feedback on its products..
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2024, 11:06:04 PM »
+1
I would like to see a few things from ME.  I use all Code 55 ME flex and turnouts on my layout:

1.  A couple of different turnout sizes.  A #10 would be very welcome.

2.  Better molds/less flashing.  I have noticed a greater incidence of excessive flashing on recent ME turnouts.  Probably a tie mold issue.

3.  Better QC to make sure the turnouts meet NMRA standards. Most of the turnouts have the diverging rail too narrow out of the box and need to be filed down to meet NMRA specs. Also, frequently the cast frogs sit higher than the adjacent rails and need to be filed down to be level with the rails.

So, in summary, my suggestion would be to make a couple different Code 55 turnouts that consistently meet NMRA standards.