PRR T-1 Duplex passenger cars?

[chicken45]

PRR7161 - Great info on "The Allegheny".
Lemosteam - Nice build of P70s
I may have missed an opportunity at my LHS.  They had a Con-Cor Smoothside Set Pennsylvania Railroad ''Loewy Design'' #2 at a higher price than I wanted to spend.  Sure enough when I went back they were sold.  I have some plain Pullman cars that I can use until I can find appropriate PRR livery cars.

Yeah...I don't know about those Con Cor cars...I think they say PENNSYLVANIA on the side instead of PULLMAN.

Admiral’s sleeper cars were owned and operated by the Pullman Company until Pullmans’ divestiture in 1948 forced railroads to buy the cars and lease them back to Pullman, who continued to staff and operate them. After 1948, the large name the letterboard of the cars began to change from “Pullman” to “Pennsylvania”.
http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/admiral41.htm

This paint scheme started in 1938 and ran till I think 1947?
I'm really fuzzy on all this, but be sure to do your research if that's something that will matter to you.
Additionally, the Con Cor set is prob mostly foob. That combine isn't' close to anything PRR. There's a FREAKING DOME CAR in there, and the obs car paint...that dark maroon stripe around the windows should be even and not change thickness mid car!
Additionally I question a LCL Merch Service X29 being included in this consist. If they were aiming for an "MS60" which IIRC, Mail Storage 60ft, where it could be a B60 or an REA X29, but not a Merch Service X29. I think MS stands for Mail Storage and NOT Merch Service. MS60 is not a specific car class, but a way of saying "we need something to store mail in".

There's a thread on Trainboard talking about this right now. Someone should direct them here for the right answer LOL.
http://www.trainboard.com/highball/index.php?threads/b60b-vs-ms60-baggage-cars.122360/#post-1080740


@tom mann do you get alerts when someone links to trainboard?

[draskouasshat]

I also want you to know I die a little inside when I see a dash between the letters and numbers in PRR loco designations. 

T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1
T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1
T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1
T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1
 
drasko

[Lemosteam]

@chicken45 , I just reponded to that B60 thread with this:

"There were three classes of B60, each with different accouterments for different needs. B60 was an early class of the car, with two axle trucks of varying truck classes. There were 360 B60 on the PRR. B60a was the next class of the same car with a unique auto loading end door on one end with an overhung roof. The B60a class also had multiple classes of two axle trucks used. There were 16 B60a. The B60b was the workhorse of them all, with over 500-700 (200 messenger) in this class. All of the classes were functional to carry just about anything, cars, horses, baggage, mail, with messenger having the ability to carry people.

Note that they DID not ever have mail hooks, as the PRR had sever other classes for this task.

Some were marked with REA (Railway Express Agency) and ARE (American Railway Express) and the messenger cars received the 6" star. It is held that they likely traveled on every road. These cars lasted well into the 60's. there are numeros photographs online and on Facebook PRR groups.

The definitive book on the subject is PENNSYLVANIA Baggage & Mail Cars, by Robert J. Liljestrand and David R. Sweetland, also published by these same gents and I am paraphrasing their information."

[MK]

T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1
T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1
T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1
T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1
 
drasko

Damn, you've just killed Chicken45!   

[thomasjmdavis]

Keep in mind when reading the following "sage" advice that the writer of this reply at one time ran a string of Minitrix foobies behind his Con-Cor PA as a late 1940s El Cap, and was shocked to learn (many decades ago) that the ATSF never owned coaches that even remotely resembled the Rivarossi heavyweight.  Which is to say, we've all been there.

I would think the Centralia cars (now marketed by Intermountain), and maybe some bits and pieces from Kato, would be preferred to the Con-Cor- in terms of getting close to PRR prototypes.  The Con-Cor cars are mostly GN (if we are talking about lightweights) and IIRC, the diner is reversed from prototype.

[chicken45]

T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1
T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1
T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1
T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1 T-1
 
drasko

LOL. +1 for you, sir.

@chicken45 , I just reponded to that B60 thread with this:

"There were three classes of B60, each with different accouterments for different needs. B60 was an early class of the car, with two axle trucks of varying truck classes. There were 360 B60 on the PRR. B60a was the next class of the same car with a unique auto loading end door on one end with an overhung roof. The B60a class also had multiple classes of two axle trucks used. There were 16 B60a. The B60b was the workhorse of them all, with over 500-700 (200 messenger) in this class. All of the classes were functional to carry just about anything, cars, horses, baggage, mail, with messenger having the ability to carry people.

Note that they DID not ever have mail hooks, as the PRR had sever other classes for this task.

Some were marked with REA (Railway Express Agency) and ARE (American Railway Express) and the messenger cars received the 6" star. It is held that they likely traveled on every road. These cars lasted well into the 60's. there are numeros photographs online and on Facebook PRR groups.

The definitive book on the subject is PENNSYLVANIA Baggage & Mail Cars, by Robert J. Liljestrand and David R. Sweetland, also published by these same gents and I am paraphrasing their information."

Cool. I don't know if that will fully explain their question, though. They didn't know what MS60 meant. They kinda got it together, but not fully. When I saw what you posted, it makes sense that MS60 would include all B60 variants. They were getting wires crossed because they incorrectly stated MS stood for Messenger Service, which led them down the path of the messenger equipped B60Bs with the vents and star marker.

[CodyO]

Cool. I don't know if that will fully explain their question, though. They didn't know what MS60 meant. They kinda got it together, but not fully. When I saw what you posted, it makes sense that MS60 would include all B60 variants. They were getting wires crossed because they incorrectly stated MS stood for Messenger Service, which led them down the path of the messenger equipped B60Bs with the vents and star marker.

Yeah they almost had it then they went down the wrong path.

The Consist book for 54 calls for 68 MS60`s,which could basically be any express car. Pennsy knew they had mail but didn`t want to say it has to be this car.

But they did specifically call for:
 27 B60`s, 19 X29`s, 9 B60 Messenger, 8 BM70M`s and 4 BM70`s.

[OldEastRR]

I'd say the coaches in Lemosteam's T1 photo were modified P70s rather than streamlined lightweights -- you can see the belt rails are still on them. That's really what Pennsy modellers of that era need: modified P70s. Some of them had only a single vestibule, and some end windows blanked out for equipment rooms, some with round bathroom windows, some clerestory and some rounded roofs, almost all with 2D-P5 or more modern trucks -- and then the ones that looked like streamlined except for the heavyweight ends. I've kitbashed a few of these from the Lima P70s, the simpler ones aren't hard. Lemosteam's PRR parts help quite a bit. But yeah, modeling a secondary train or lesser, it'd be all heavyweights (modified or not)  except for any streamlined cars destined to be added to/dropped from a first-class passenger train at some town. And MTL makes a prototypical PRR heavyweight diner, which saves you a difficult scratchbuild.

AS for the first car behind the T1, it's not hard to convert the Lima Mail-Baggage-Coach to this:

[narrowminded]

Does anybody have any need for some old Pennsylvania Rivarrossi (Atlas, Lima or whatever) heavyweights?  If so, send me a PM and I'll dig them out and let you know what I have.  None have boxes but most were in very decent condition to my recall.  Trucks and wheels might need some attention, just don't remember clearly.

[chicken45]

Does anybody have any need for some old Pennsylvania Rivarrossi (Atlas, Lima or whatever) heavyweights?  If so, send me a PM and I'll dig them out and let you know what I have.  None have boxes but most were in very decent condition to my recall.  Trucks and wheels might need some attention, just don't remember clearly.

PM INBOUND!

[Lemosteam]

I'd say the coaches in Lemosteam's T1 photo were modified P70s rather than streamlined lightweights -- you can see the belt rails are still on them. That's really what Pennsy modellers of that era need: modified P70s. Some of them had only a single vestibule, and some end windows blanked out for equipment rooms, some with round bathroom windows, some clerestory and some rounded roofs, almost all with 2D-P5 or more modern trucks -- and then the ones that looked like streamlined except for the heavyweight ends. I've kitbashed a few of these from the Lima P70s, the simpler ones aren't hard. Lemosteam's PRR parts help quite a bit. But yeah, modeling a secondary train or lesser, it'd be all heavyweights (modified or not)  except for any streamlined cars destined to be added to/dropped from a first-class passenger train at some town. And MTL makes a prototypical PRR heavyweight diner, which saves you a difficult scratchbuild.

AS for the first car behind the T1, it's not hard to convert the Lima Mail-Baggage-Coach to this:

That after one or more B60's, yes.

[CodyO]

That after one or more B60's, yes.

The photo you posted has a PB70 right after a T1