Cleaning a new Atlas Geep 9

[DKS]

I don't have both types on hand to compare. One oddball question: how are they insulated? Are they both of the type that have an insulating collar on one wheel and not the other, or does one set have collars on both wheels?

[GaryHinshaw]

Good question DKS.  They are insulated on one side only, like the FVM and BLMA wheels.  But here is an interesting difference: they are highly magnetic!



This shot shows a wheel being strongly attracted by a stack of rare earth magnets.  The same test with FVM or BLMA wheels shows only very weak magnetism, so that must be an important factor.  I think I'm going to make a track cleaning train of junker cars outfitted with ER wheels.   

I wonder if the Atlas Geep wheels are magnetic?  (I don't have one to test.)

Added: not surprisingly, the crud I scraped off this wheel is pretty magnetic too.  I can't see any metal in the crud, but it's hard to tell.

[DKS]

Being magnetic or not probably doesn't make a difference, but it does indicate a big difference in alloy composition, and that might be a factor in their relative crud-accumulation behavior.

[havingfuntoo]

Is the difference that exact rail wheels are just CNC turned and not plated and the BLMA wheels are plated, and, or the wheels from BLMA are made from harder material?
I don’t have examples of either of them available to me now but I do know that plating a surface greatly reduces the fine abrasive pattern left on the metal surface after the turning process. This abrasiveness is exaggerated as the tools wears. Also the harder metals often give a better finish provided the tools are kept in good order, soft metals in the turning process tend to tear rather than be cut, especially in high speed CNC machines.

I have found that some of my wheels will crud up more quickly than others, even though they are the same brand. On closer inspection I have noticed that the finish on the cruddy wheels is not quiet as good as the cleaner ones. I have never had the patience to try and polish up the wheels that seem to pick up more rubbish than their brothers and sisters.

[peteski]

In my original assertion I indicated that I believe that there are several reasons why some wheel threads attract crud. I didn't mention any specifics but I also strongly believe that plating and the smoothness of the surface play some role in this.  Plating can wear off after long use, and this can affect the wheel's "dirtability".    The metal hardness probably also play role here (along with the profile of the thread/flange.

I have not check magnetic propertyies of the metal wheels I use, assuming that they were all made from either brass or nickel-silver. At least in the past, that is what N scale metal wheels were made of.  I'm really surprised that some of the new wheels are magnetic.

[GaryHinshaw]

The ER tread is definitely rougher than the BLMA tread, and that must be a contributing factor.  Here is a side by side of two freshly cleaned treads (ER on the right):



I think there is no doubt that a rough surface can more easily harbour crud and that there is a snowball effect: once crud starts to accumulate, the sticky surface attracts more, and it builds up.  Fine - that may be the whole story as to why some wheels get dirty faster.  But here are some more facts to consider:

* As noted earlier, the crud I scraped off the wheels is magnetic, i.e., it contains magnetic metal.  I looked at this a bit more carefully: this time I scraped the crud off a different wheel with a wood toothpick, to make sure there was no (magnetic) knife blade residue.  The crud is still magnetic.

* I scraped a (small amount) of crud off of a rough plastic wheel that saw similar train service (also using a wood toothpick).  The crud was still magnetic.

* I tested the hardness of the ER and BLMA wheels.  I found that I could scribe a line in the BLMA wheel more easily than the ER wheel, so the ER metal itself is not soft.

So, I don't know the source of the magnetic crud, but it builds up more readily on rough treads.   The only sources of ground magnetic metal near my tracks that I can think of are the locomotive mechanisms and the ER wheels....   Do others find their wheel crud to be magnetic?

BTW, most of my wheels stay pretty clean, and I have almost no problems with locomotive performance, so this is really just my curiosity at work here.

[havingfuntoo]

Just for the exercise try dissolving some of the collected crud in a petroleum based spirit (that will probably be the quickest to do the job … I strongly advise not to use it on your wheels) and see what you are left with. Those ER wheels look a lot rougher than the BLMA ones. I must get out some Fox Valley ones and check out how they compare to the BMLA ones. 

[pnolan48]

Interesting discussion. When I was out in Albuquerque for nearly 20 years and two layouts, I had no problems with wheel crud. My only problem was mild oxidation on the rails and probably the pickup wheels, which weren't a problem when I was running a lot. The layouts were in sealed, climate controlled rooms, and the atmosphere was dry as the Sahara.

I'm wondering how much of a role humidity plays in the accumulation of crud. From 20 years previous to ABQ in New England, I'll vouch, solely from observation, that "rougher" wheels picked up crud faster than smoother wheels. and that wheels really did pick up a lot of crud on my layouts, which were in basements, which were humid and, due to the age of the houses, dirtier than new construction in ABQ.

I was into marathon running on my layouts in ABQ, often letting a "safe" train run for days at a time. I was never able to wear through the axle cups after hundreds of or even a thousand hours of running, so I think this may be a myth. It's been floating around for perhaps 15 years. I have been able to wear out the motor shaft bearings, probably due to less than adequate lube, but even that took a long, long time--and I think they wear out even with proper lube, as one of my marathon runners was periodically lubed at the motor shafts and still broke down at about 700 hours (a guess).

[Flatrat]

I'm going to jump back on to my thread here for a moment if I may. I've enjoyed the discussion of how polished and what angle a wheel is constructed as to how it effects its ability to attract/build up crud. A rough wheel has, like they say about Thomas's English muffins; "nooks and crannies" which one would naturally surmise could collect more crud than higher polished surface.
Another thought I had when discussion of magnetism was mentioned was also the metallurgy of the wheel in question and its ionic ability to attract or repel 'crud'.
I lately feel more compelled to agree with other posters regarding humidity/water vapor content. My layout is in the basement which has low humidity in the winter, requires little rail and wheel cleaning. This year especially, we here in Asheville have had rain DAILY for about 6 weeks now and my dehumidifier in the room where my trains run is set to 65% and rarely ever shuts off as opposed to never running at all in winter. My vote would have to be to consider the relative humidity in the room where the layout is and expect higher electrical contact maintenance in times of high humidity.
Before Bob properly cleaned the wheels on my Geep I used to get by with light cleaning with 70% alcohol or other track cleaning products on the rails and wheels. Today I took a Mr. Clean magic eraser and cut small strips and applied QD electronic cleaner to those strips and went over what appeared to be pretty clean rails. I run regular old DC track power and tonight I find the locos running very smoothly at much lower power settings on my transformers than ever before. They are smoothly creeping around at VERY low speeds tonight. The only variable I can really identify is MUCH higher humidity levels

[MichaelWinicki]

I'm going to jump back on to my thread here for a moment if I may. I've enjoyed the discussion of how polished and what angle a wheel is constructed as to how it effects its ability to attract/build up crud. A rough wheel has, like they say about Thomas's English muffins; "nooks and crannies" which one would naturally surmise could collect more crud than higher polished surface.
Another thought I had when discussion of magnetism was mentioned was also the metallurgy of the wheel in question and its ionic ability to attract or repel 'crud'.
I lately feel more compelled to agree with other posters regarding humidity/water vapor content. My layout is in the basement which has low humidity in the winter, requires little rail and wheel cleaning. This year especially, we here in Asheville have had rain DAILY for about 6 weeks now and my humidifier in the room where my trains run is set to 65% and rarely ever shuts off as opposed to never running at all in winter. My vote would have to be to consider the relative humidity in the room where the layout is and expect higher electrical contact maintenance in times of high humidity.
Before Bob properly cleaned the wheels on my Geep I used to get by with light cleaning with 70% alcohol or other track cleaning products on the rails and wheels. Today I took a Mr. Clean magic eraser and cut small strips and applied QD electronic cleaner to those strips and went over what appeared to be pretty clean rails. I run regular old DC track power and tonight I find the locos running very smoothly at much lower power settings on my transformers than ever before. They are smoothly creeping around at VERY low speeds tonight. The only variable I can really identify is MUCH higher humidity levels

I would consider ditching the 70% stuff for track cleaning and go with the 91% stuff (less water in it, which is a good thing) or go with mineral spirits, which is what I use.  I live in an area with high humidity and had much more of a problem with wheel treads accumulating non-conductive (apparently) dirt when I used alcohol to clean my rails.  After I switched to mineral spirits, locomotives stalling due to dirty wheel treads dropped by well over 90%.

[Flatrat]

I totally concur Michael. I have since purchased 91% alcohol and a new can of CRC QD electronic cleaner and all is well here in the currently very humid, Great Smoky Mountains. Mineral Spirits should also contain oils I might suspect that could lead to buildup but, as always, what works best at your house is...the best solution. I guess you might also consider buying some Grain alcohol or higher proof but 91% is currently working well here at my house.

My vote in the discussion is still high humidity=crud buildup on contact surfaces.

[MichaelWinicki]

I totally concur Michael. I have since purchased 91% alcohol and a new can of CRC QD electronic cleaner and all is well here in the currently very humid, Great Smoky Mountains. Mineral Spirits should also contain oils I might suspect that could lead to buildup but, as always, what works best at your house is...the best solution. I guess you might also consider buying some Grain alcohol or higher proof but 91% is currently working well here at my house.

My vote in the discussion is still high humidity=crud buildup on contact surfaces.

I started using Mineral Spirits after Joe Fugate talked about using it on his layout... And the resulting success he had.   I guess this falls under the old "Wet vs. dry" debate, which is probably outside the scope of this thread, but whatever works for someone... works for someone as long as it keeps the trains running and track cleaning at a minimum.     

[Flatrat]

I totally agree Michael. While mineral spirits ARE derived from crude oil, research suggests as a cleaning product that similar to TSP and Hexane, etc., that mineral spirits leave NO residue therefore, my suspicions of leaving any oily residue quite possibly are unfounded.
Thanks again for the advice.

Scott