New Printer on its WAY!

[robert3985]

I just bit the bullet and ordered a LARGE format printer, the 13.6" ANYCUBIC Photon Mono M7 Max, and I'm excited as Hell to get it on its way!

I got a project that's slightly too big for my 10" Anycubic Photon M3 Premium (which I LOVE) and the new M7 Max is wide and tall enough for me to properly position the large, tall parts required for this project.

Technology has progressed a bit since I bought my M3 Premium a couple of years ago, and I'm looking forward to faster printing time, more effective AA, high-tech pressure sensing and the heated resin vat!...along with several other features. 

My M3 Premium is well known to be the very best 3D printer that ANYCUBIC made and I wish I had had the foresight to purchase two of them when they were available.  However this new M7 Max is only a few points off of being an equal to my old M3 Premium (according to several well-respected reviewers) so I have also ordered a spare resin vat and a second build plate to speed things up a bit.  If I'm in love with it after using it for a few weeks, I'll get another LED for it too.

Luckily, I've got room on my 3D printing workbench for it, although there won't be much workbench in front of it because of the rear space the flip-open cover requires, but, I rarely use the workbench space in front of my present printer for anything, so no loss.

I'm about ready to introduce TRW to the line of N-scale detail parts me and my partners are producing.  It'll happen very shortly!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[AlwaysSolutions]

Congrats!  I'll be eager to hear how it stacks up to the M3 Premium.  I've got an M3 Premium as well and I'm glad to have a machine that's held its own for more than six months, let alone however many years it's been since I got it.  Particularly, I'm interested to know if the force detection works as well as advertised.  I probably won't upgrade until the M3 dies so that could be a couple more years off.   

Cheers -Mike

[JeffB]

Congrats Bob!

Let us know how you like the new printer once it's up and running.  I've been contemplating a larger format printer, but haven't settled on anything yet.

Jeff

[rodsup9000]

My M3 Premium is well known to be the very best 3D printer that ANYCUBIC made

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

Bob, unless it's a DLP printer. I think the D2 (DLP) is the best printer made by Anycubic. It just has a small build volume.
Be interested in compering the prints against the D2.
  N Scale D7 Cats
These were just quick prints and you can see that I need more supports.

The one on the left was printed on the D2, the one on the right was printed on a Mono 6K
The difference is night and day

[robert3985]

Bob, unless it's a DLP printer. I think the D2 (DLP) is the best printer made by Anycubic. It just has a small build volume.
Be interested in compering the prints against the D2.
  N Scale D7 Cats
These were just quick prints and you can see that I need more supports.

The one on the left was printed on the D2, the one on the right was printed on a Mono 6K
The difference is night and day

@rodsup9000 - Rod, I agree that DLP technology is "better" in several aspects over mono LCD printers, however, ultimate resolution isn't one of those aspects any longer, and hasn't been a factor for three or four years.  However, because of the sharpness (not size) of the voxel produced by DLP printers and light not being required to travel through an LCD (which fuzzifies it) voxels produced by DLP printers are generally sharper than voxels produced by LCD machines.  But, because of continual efforts to make light sources on LCD machines (especially higher-end machines) retain their collimation and corner-to-corner consistency, many LCD machines have been producing prints that are just as good or better than both of the DLP technology printers that are still on the market.

However, pixel sharpness was problematic with the first Anycubic DLP machine made (the Photon Ultra) because of the layer line problem and a primitive AA algorithm...producing prints that were "too sharp"...meaning layer lines were much more evident and less able to be controlled through the Ultra's AA function.  The present Anycubic DLP machine, the Photon D2 has a much better AA algorithm and layer lines have ceased to be much of a problem with it, but, in Anycubic's literature about the machine, the new AA algorithm is emphasized because of the previous machine's poor AA performance, which inhibited its desirability and sales.

I agree that DLP print quality is now excellent, even with DLP's quite large voxel size of around 54microns.  LCD machines in the past 3 to 4 years have reduced the size of their screen pixels with higher definition screens to where screen pixels are hovering in the 20micron size (because most of them are rectangular, rather than square...so resolution is determined by the larger dimension) and light collimation and consistency has improved quite drastically also, making for much smaller and effectively sharper voxels than either of the two DLP machines are capable of producing.

BUT, the "goodness" of a 3D printer isn't only about print quality, where the DLP machines still rank very highly.  Some of the things that make a "good" machine have to do with precision, such as Z-axis accuracy and consistency, build plate flatness, the machine's UI, the type of FEP, vat capacity, overall rigidity, type of Z-axis screw (Lead or Ball), location of controls, print volume, placement of controls, noise, filtration, reliability and many other aspects other than print quality, even though, in the end, print quality is probably the most important factor.

If DLP technology hadn't come to a screeching halt after the Anycubic Photon D2 and larger machines had been built rather than just a 5.9" machine...which is SMALL, I would have been very happy because of DLP's long life expectancy, low power requirement, and low noise.  But, that didn't happen...and many 3D Makers are considering 10" machines to be the "norm" nowadays since they will produce small prints, but with the capability of producing fairly large prints if they're wanted.

After a certain point, resolution becomes moot, and my 8K 10" Anycubic Photon M3 Premium, with its precision Ball-screw controlled Z-axis 5 micron accuracy, exceptionally robust twin Z-rails, premium metal construction, advanced COB lighting technology, oversized resin vat (1350ml) with NFEP, excellent AA algorithm, massive rigidity, twin activated carbon air filters, wireless operation...with it's 28.5micron square screen pixels operates reliably every day in my shop producing prints of N-scale detail parts with smooth curved surfaces, sharp bolt-heads and corners, and fine cross-sections on details down to 0.002". 

Voxel size on my 8K machine is slightly smaller than on the Photon D2, and frankly, I print all of my N-scale detail parts at 0.030mm, which is all that the vast majority of consumer UV resins can resolve. 

And, I can print a one-off of an N-scale E8/E9 cab vent, or fill my built plate and print 2450 of them...in the same amount of time.  The Anycubic Photon D2 DLP's build plate would only yield roughly half of that amount if I filled it up, and the quality would be virtually identical since the machines are operating at the limits of present-day resins' resolving capabilities.

So, even though the smaller DLP machines make excellent prints, they aren't as versatile as 10" or larger machines, limiting what you can print to smaller volume projects, or fewer numbers of parts.

Which brings me to why I'm going for the Anycubic Photon Mono M7 Max, which is only a 7K machine, with 34micron screen pixels.  I'm doing a large, G-scale project and I don't need (or want) ultra-high resolution.  I'll be printing in 0.1mm layers with the height of the prints being around 290mm (including supports) for the large parts, and the smaller parts that need more detail resolution, I'll be printing on my 10" 8K M3 Premium with 0.05mm layers. 

It's nice to have the versatility for being able to print both small (tiny) high-resolution parts, as well as large not-so-high-resolution parts...in both high and low volumes, meaning a small DLP machine would not offer me any advantages whatsoever over several more versatile, just as excellent resolution, more convenient LCD machines...and which is why the Anycubic Photon D2, although a good machine, it's lack of versatility, low construction quality and small size render it definitely not Anycubic's "best" 3D resin printer.

Photo (1) - High Definition N-scale detail parts on a Kato E-8. How many are there???:


Photo (2) - High Definition N-scale detail parts, another view:


Photo (3) - Lotsa Firecracker Antennae on about 3/4 of my M3 Premium's build plate fresh out of a 50 minute printing:


Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[ednadolski]

It's nice to have the versatility for being able to print both small (tiny) high-resolution parts ...

Bob, do you think your printer (new or old) would be able to print scale-sized handrails for N-scale diesels?   (I am assuming there is a resin that could be used which would not be too brittle/fragile.)

Ed

[Jesse6669]

Bob, do you think your printer (new or old) would be able to print scale-sized handrails for N-scale diesels?   (I am assuming there is a resin that could be used which would not be too brittle/fragile.)

Ed

It's all about the resin.. I have some Z scale caboose handrails that print and are easily durable (read: Flexible) enough for use.  And I did T-scale handrails on a Train Master.  I'm using Phrozen RPG resin right now.  So N scale would be similar.  But it'll be tough because of how the resin cures and shrinks a little and reacts to water--getting them dead-straight will be difficult.  I made the TM handrails on a horizontal base with supports on every stanchion and even on the inside of the railing.  Mind, that was smaller than N, so the longer runs will be quite difficult to do, I think.   
 

[robert3985]

Bob, do you think your printer (new or old) would be able to print scale-sized handrails for N-scale diesels?   (I am assuming there is a resin that could be used which would not be too brittle/fragile.)

Ed

@ednadolski - Ed, I'm not so sure about "scale-sized" handrails...since some scale-sized handrails on UP cabooses, such as the cupola handrails on their wooden CA-1's were only 5/8ths of an inch in diameter...that's 0.0039" scaled down to 1/160th scale.  BUT....

Assuming that "scale-sized" handrails on diesels would probably be .75" to 1.25" (I need to get down to the Utah Railroad Museum in Ogden with my calipers, measuring tape, camera and clipboard), I'll also assume that a scale railing size of 1" or 0.00625" would look "scale sized" enough to work, and assume that a flexible enough paint could be used to color them (airbrushed) enough to be opaque with a layer thickness of slightly less than 0.0005" (half a thousandths) for a total diameter gain of 0.001" on the railings...I'd say "yes".

BUT, that's three instances of "assuming" goin' on there, and you know what they say about "assume"...y'know...making an "a$$" out of "u" and "me"... 

I've seen the photos of @Jesse6669 's Z-scale and T-scale caboose and gondola printings, and I am highly encouraged by his results...and, I also agree completely that it's all about the resin...well, MOSTLY about the resin, because resin characteristics can be manipulated by type, exposure time, supports, print angles, print length, resin temperature, humidity, wash time, cure time, and other more esoteric things such as lift speed, light-off compensation, etc., etc.

However, the present-day 3D printers definitely have the capabilities to print verrrry fine cross sections and details...but, it's the resin technology that allows the machine's high definition and other print characteristics, to form these tiny parts.

I think that there are several resin manufacturers who are working diligently towards making their resin products capable of being robust (flexible) enough, detail-retaining enough...and, at the same time with little or no shrinkage...to render ultra-fine cross sections for prints that can be handled and not easily broken.

Jesse uses Phrozen RPG for his tiny handrails and grabs/stirrups on his Z-scale and T-scale cars, and I'm using Anycubic Tough 2 resin for my N-scale Firecracker Antennae...and I'm pretty happy with their durability, even though they're not "unbreakable"...but durable for "normal" not ham-handed handling.

I've got plans that are quickly coalescing in my brain to do some cabooses myself in N-scale, and experimenting with Anycubic and Phrozen resins to see if I can get printed grabs and end railings/ladders that are in the 0.006" to 0.008" diameter neighborhood, as well as expanded metal N-scale replicas of running boards and end platform/step floors to compliment various versions of the cabooses I want to produce...and, I've noticed that Anycubic keeps introducing more advanced versions of their "Tough" and "Tough-Ultra" and "Rigid" resins, all designed for making products that are completely functional in many instances. This indicates to me that the 3D printing industry recognizes the NEED for small, highly detailed, accurate, dimensionally stable and durable 3D prints. 

However, Anycubic's "Rigid" resin requires a heated vat that will reach at least 25C (77F) for printing, and must be UV cured for 30 minutes at 60C (151F) and "...in a hot environment"...whatever that means.

Also, some manufacturers are offering their resins with more opaque characteristics, which is good for tiny-cross section parts, such as your handrails and my grabs/end railings/ladders...and also in "matte" textures.  Hmm...possibilities.

Now, if they would only offer a super-durable/flexible/semi-rigid/opaque color/matte finish resin!...that prints and cures at a reasonable temperature!

So, I have high hopes that with care, the correct resin selection, and the right type or mix of paint to stick to flexible, small cross sections (without flaking off when they're bent)...that "scale-sized" handrails, with highly detailed features such as bolt-heads, tubing "T's", stanchion profiles, and mounting pads maybe can be be printed with today's available resins...because the printers are already ready.

Jesse's work really encourages me and I think it is significant for the model railroad culture for those willing to invest the money, time and effort into exploiting 3D printing technology for the benefit of much more-correct model railroad details.

Since I am teaching myself to use the subscription version of Fusion 360 as my CAD tool on a daily basis, one of my priorities is to get to a point where I am comfortable with building more complex 3D models SOON because it's time to jump on the band-wagon and not get left behind before the rest of the model railroad industry finally sees the advantages of producing 3D models for mass consumption...especially in the smaller scales.

Which means, I'll be able to offer a more concrete answer to your question Ed in the next couple of months...or maybe sooner.

Oh, by the way, my Anycubic Photon M3 Premium is over two years old, so I guess it would be considered to be "old"...and even at only 8K, it is fully capable of printing very finely detailed N-scale parts...so, if I remember correctly, your machine would also be fully capable since its X-Y resolution is finer than my printer's resolution of 28.5 microns.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[robert3985]

It's all about the resin.. I have some Z scale caboose handrails that print and are easily durable (read: Flexible) enough for use.  And I did T-scale handrails on a Train Master.  I'm using Phrozen RPG resin right now.  So N scale would be similar.  But it'll be tough because of how the resin cures and shrinks a little and reacts to water--getting them dead-straight will be difficult.  I made the TM handrails on a horizontal base with supports on every stanchion and even on the inside of the railing.  Mind, that was smaller than N, so the longer runs will be quite difficult to do, I think.   
 

@Jesse6669 - Jesse, your work has highly motivated me to come to a pretty concrete conclusion that N-scale grabs/railings/ladders can be printed that are durable enough to actually be handled with only "normal" caution.

I've mentioned you in my answer to @ednadolski 's query about "scale-sized" handrails (if you haven't seen Ed's work and his jaw-dropping 0.006" or smaller brass/bronze diesel handrails and other diesel details, then take a look!).

I believe your work exemplifies what ultra-fine details can be produced with proper 3D resin materials and techniques, along with enough care, intuition and effort.

Since my new printer, with proper use of "detail Anti-Aliasing" (to compensate for it's relatively poor 46 micron X-Y resolution), and with integral vat heating, is pretty ideal for using some of the new super-durable resins, I'm looking forward to getting it, setting it up and doing some experimentation with these new resins.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[garethashenden]

There's something I've never fully understood that this thread has reminded me of. With Anti-Aliasing, does the printer do it itself or is it in the slicer? Or both?

[Chris333]

Usually the slicer, but not all printers are supported.

[cgw277]

Bob, I'm looking forward to seeing  what you're capable of printing on your new printer. I recently bought the same printer. Decided it was time that a heater was necessary for printing. I live in central Iowa and the printer is in the basement. Temperature downstairs  is too cool almost year round  for printing. Pre heating the resin before printing has become too much of a hassle. I also like the wi fi connection on the M 7 Max.  I can monitor it with the Anycubic app without constantly  going downstairs to check on things.

Jesse, your handrails for that Trainmaster are very impressive. I've been tying to print an N scale ladder for a train order signal. I've been using Anycubic Standard resin and want to try something different. I will try the Phrozen RPG.

Good information, thanks
Scot Mason

[chessie system fan]

These photos from @haasmarc show what can be done.

(from https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=58678.0)

[Chris333]

Any idea what the brown resin is?

[haasmarc]

Any idea what the brown resin is?

Chris, if you are asking about my caboose handrails, the brown resin is 80% Phrozen 8k red clay and 20% Phrozen onyx impact plus.