Modeling Late 60s/early 70s Passneger Trains..

[learmoia]

(wasn't sure if I should put this in N scale or prototype).. When in doubt.. N scale.  Feel free to move to Prototype if desired.

I want to model some Mid 60s'/Early 70s' Passenger Trains in N scale.  My plan is to use primarily Kato cars.. Not looking for 100% accuracy.. just a general likeness.

Here are the trains I'd like to model..
1: Mid 1960s NYC 20th Century Limited.
2: Late 1960s Penn Central New York - Chicago Train  I was thinking 48/49.. but maybe 28/29 or 62/63
3: Burlington Northern Empire Builder.
4: Amtrak Mid 1970s Eastern Rainbow train..  Something GG1 powered..
5: Amtrak Midwestern Rainbow train.. Like a Cal Zephyr
Maybe..
6: Amtrak Western Rainbow Train.. Like .an El Capitan/Chief.

The BN Train and Amtrak Trains are fairly well documented in photos and videos..

The NYC Train I found a consist from 1965 and it seems pretty straight forward.
    Westbound train #25—20th Century Limited, on March 30, 1965,
    E7A diesel locomotive: NYC 4025;
    E8A diesel locomotive: NYC 4080;
    E7A diesel locomotive: NYC 4007;
    Class MB Baggage-mail car: NYC 5018;
    Class CSB Baggage-dormitory car: NYC 8979;
    Class PB Coach: NYC 2942;
    Class DG Grill-diner: NYC 450;
    Class PAS Sleepercoach (16-Single Room 10-Double Room): NYC 10811;
    Class PAS Sleepercoach (16-Single Room 10-Double Room): NYC 10817;
    Class PS Sleeper (22-roomette): NYC 10355 BOSTON HARBOR;
    Class DKP Kitchen-Lounge Car: NYC 477;
    Class DE Dining Room Car: NYC 406;
    Class PS Sleeper (10-roomette 6-double bedroom): NYC 10171 CURRENT RIVER;
    Class PS Sleeper (12-double bedroom): NYC 10511 PORT OF DETROIT;
    Class PS Sleeper (12-double bedroom): NYC 10501 PORT BYRON;
    Class PSO Sleeper-Buffet-Lounge-Observation (5-double bedroom): NYC 10633 HICKORY CREEK.

Where I'm having trouble is Penn Central..
I have found Zero consist lists... I've found pictures of cars and some short trains but probably not 48/49
I see the timetable listing that show what was available on the trains.

Would it would be appropriate to mix in some NYC Equipment?
for Ex NYC cars I have found plenty of photos of stainless steel cars, but Zero example of Two Tone Gray or Pullman Green cars.
I was hoping to take some left over cars from my 20th century set and toss them into the PC Train..

Thoughts?

Sources I have found so far.
Multi-Modal Ways for Timetables.  https://www.multimodalways.org/archives/rrs/PCTC/PCTC%20TTs/PCTC%20TTs.html
The Passenger Car Photo Archive. http://passcarphotos.rypn.org/Indices/PC2.htm
MBernero's Great Flikr page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/albums/72157676403687876/
Fred's N scale Passenger car guide: http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/

[randgust]

I'm doing the incredibly short-lived Amtrak "Chief" which only ran during the summer of 1972.   And I rode on it. It's really a pocket version of the full "Super Chief" that year that fits a layout a lot better but is really interesting.

It's taken me years and years to build a consist that's pretty darn close to the train I rode - car for car....

Kato EMD F7's in Warbonnet, weathered, kinda beat.  Amtrak ran them ABAB, I run them proper ABBA, but this was the last run for warbonnet F's, they exited off lease in December '72.

Kato Budd baggage ATSF (actual car was a smooth-side)

2 Kato El Capitan coaches- ATSF - hi levels.

1 Kato Budd dome - Burlington, yes, the dome was right behind the hi-levels.

1 Intermountain Union Pacific diner, finally found the right car that matched the photos and added the roof antennas

1 Kato Budd sleeper, repainted in Phase 1 Amtrak stripes (Micro-scale decals)

1  Roco Pullman-Standard sleeper (old MRC) repainted in Phase 1 Amtrak stripes (Micro-scale decals)

1  Kato 44-seat coach - ATSF.   This was added at KCS on the westbound run only from the National.   There was also a sleeper added, but I can't fit one additional car on this train and fit my storage yard.

The entire train is equipped with Rapido easy-peasy lighting, and the lead unit has a mars light on it, and I addded (fictionally) a lit Amtrak drumhead on the end coach, well, because, I could.   So the night running of this model is rather spectacular now.

I really struggled with adding that proper UP yellow diner to my Santa Fe basic train.  Grew to like it.   The other thing was that the tail-end sleeper added at KCSU was a Chesapeake & Ohio blue and yellow something, that I think was at least partially a slumbercoach.

[thomasjmdavis]

"1  Kato 44-seat coach - ATSF.   This was added at KCS on the westbound run only from the National.   There was also a sleeper added, but I can't fit one additional car on this train and fit my storage yard."

Fun project.

Did Kato do a version of their 44 seat coach with fluting, or did Amtrak strip the fluting off the ATSF cars? 

A note on the baggage- the Bachmann smooth side baggage car is quite close to the ATSF "semi streamlined" 70' baggage cars built late 50s-early 60s.  Not recommending it, as it will need work on trucks and details, but you might want to take a look if the specific car makes a difference. 

I rode the train after it became the "Southwest" ("Southwest Limited" IIRC) circa 1977-80 on a couple occasions.  Most of the cars were, I think, ex-ATSF.  I rode in the former El Capitan hi level chair cars.  Also rode the real Super-Chief/El Capitan in the late 1960s.  Dining in an ATSF diner was an entirely superior experience, not to mention faster schedule.  Unfortunately, none of my photos of any of those trips has survived floods and moves of the intervening decades.

[DonSuro]

Try: Morning Sun Books- Penn Central Through Passenger Service- pictures and descriptions
Penn Central Railroad Online- http://pc.smellycat.com/docs/passenger/index.html      train consists
Penn Central 1970-1971 consists         https://groups.io/g/passconsist/topic/penn_central_1970_1971/102550212?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate/sticky,,,20,0,0,102550212,previd%3D1699937244498196982,nextid%3D1678966021580393623&previd=1699937244498196982&nextid=1678966021580393623

Hope this helps

DonSuro

[wm3798]

I'm far less concerned with making sure the cars are spot on for a particular train or a particular date, but I love those late era passenger trains as well.
Around 1970, as a mere lad of 6, I rode the Cleveland Night Express out of Camden Station with my mom to visit her family in the train's namesake city.  I have no idea what car I rode in or even what the engine looked like, but this is my stand in.

A ConCor E8 with the modified Kato PA drive and a shell I painted to resemble the members of the fleet that were handed down when the C&O gave up on intercity travel.

I've also seen lots of photos of the late era Shenandoah, with a shiny stainless consist pulled by dip job E units.


I like studying the pictures to see how my old Rowa and Concor cars are wrong, but I know I'll never live long enough to do anything about them, so I JFRTM whenever I get the itch, and pause the trains at my station so the N scale populous can move about the country.

Lee

[Point353]

Around 1970, as a mere lad of 6, I rode the Cleveland Night Express out of Camden Station with my mom to visit her family in the train's namesake city.

Is that the same Cleveland Night Express that was discontinued in 1962?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Night_Express

[Usili]

I was just reading Twilight of the Great Trains by Fred W. Frailey, per recommendation from a friend, and it has a breakdown of the PC consists for 2/69 which you were looking for.

In the case of train 49:
1 Baggage, 3 10-6 Sleepers, 1 12Duplex Roomette-4BR Sleeper, 1 4BR-4Cpt-2DR Sleeper, 1 Sleeper-Bar Lounge (5 BR), 1 Twin-Unit Diner, 1 Coach-Lounge, 3 Coaches

In the case of train 61-27, its more complicated, and depends on where you are modeling from Chicago-Buffalo (by way of Cleveland), Chicago-Buffalo (by way of Detroit), Buffalo-Albany, or then from Albany to either Boston or New York City. Penn Central effectively combined trains that went to Chicago via either Detroit or Cleveland at Buffalo alongside a nightly Toronto-NYC train which ran altogether from Buffalo-Albany where they all proceeded to split up. I'll really list the segments in between Chicago and Buffalo via either Cleveland or Detroit which should provide some help for it:

Chicago-Buffalo (via Cleveland):
1 Baggage-Dorm, 2 Slumbercoach (16-10), 1 10-6 Sleeper, 1 14-4 Sleeper, 1 Diner, Kitchen-Lounge+Coach (Twin Unit), 3 Coaches

Chicago-Buffalo (via Detroit):
1 Baggage (ran only Chicago-Buffalo), 2 Coach, 1 Diner-Lounge (only Chicago-Detroit), 1 Slumbercoach (16-10) (goes as far west as Detroit), 1 Storage Mail

This is admittedly just in terms of cars and not necessarily the locomotives, but should help on that front.

[learmoia]

Try: Morning Sun Books- Penn Central Through Passenger Service- pictures and descriptions
Penn Central Railroad Online- http://pc.smellycat.com/docs/passenger/index.html      train consists
Penn Central 1970-1971 consists         https://groups.io/g/passconsist/topic/penn_central_1970_1971/102550212?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate/sticky,,,20,0,0,102550212,previd%3D1699937244498196982,nextid%3D1678966021580393623&previd=1699937244498196982&nextid=1678966021580393623

Hope this helps

DonSuro

Ahh it did.. thanks Don..

Train # 49  Broadway Limited    New York - Chicago

power   4896-4939  GG1 into Harrisburg
power   4274-4311  E8    from Harrisburg
bag       9114
sleeper  Toronto Harbor   10-6
sleeper  Penn Rapids       10-6
sleeper  Bucks County     10-6
sleeper  Alexander M Byers  10-6
sleeper  Woodland Stream    6 bed lounge
diner       4564
coach     3000   ex UP
coach     3005   ex UP

Posted by Ed Von Nordeck  Dec 23, 2017

What I find interesting is compare the passenger equipment in the 1968 timetable to the equipment listed in the 1970 timetable.
1968 E/W Trains: 28 Trains
1970 E/W Trains: 22 Trains

1968 Broadway Limited:
Lounge Bar
Sleeping Car Room Types: Roomette, Duplex, Bedrooms, Compartments and Drawing Rooms
Dining Car
Reclining Seat Coach
Lounge Coach

1970 Broadway Limited.
Lounge Bar
Sleeping Car Room Types: Roomette, Duplex, Bedrooms, Compartments and Drawing Rooms
Dining Car
Reclining Seat Coach
Lounge Coach

I was just reading Twilight of the Great Trains by Fred W. Frailey, per recommendation from a friend, and it has a breakdown of the PC consists for 2/69 which you were looking for.

In the case of train 49:
1 Baggage, 3 10-6 Sleepers, 1 12Duplex Roomette-4BR Sleeper, 1 4BR-4Cpt-2DR Sleeper, 1 Sleeper-Bar Lounge (5 BR), 1 Twin-Unit Diner, 1 Coach-Lounge, 3 Coaches

In the case of train 61-27, its more complicated, and depends on where you are modeling from Chicago-Buffalo (by way of Cleveland), Chicago-Buffalo (by way of Detroit), Buffalo-Albany, or then from Albany to either Boston or New York City. Penn Central effectively combined trains that went to Chicago via either Detroit or Cleveland at Buffalo alongside a nightly Toronto-NYC train which ran altogether from Buffalo-Albany where they all proceeded to split up. I'll really list the segments in between Chicago and Buffalo via either Cleveland or Detroit which should provide some help for it:

Chicago-Buffalo (via Cleveland):
1 Baggage-Dorm, 2 Slumbercoach (16-10), 1 10-6 Sleeper, 1 14-4 Sleeper, 1 Diner, Kitchen-Lounge+Coach (Twin Unit), 3 Coaches

Chicago-Buffalo (via Detroit):
1 Baggage (ran only Chicago-Buffalo), 2 Coach, 1 Diner-Lounge (only Chicago-Detroit), 1 Slumbercoach (16-10) (goes as far west as Detroit), 1 Storage Mail

This is admittedly just in terms of cars and not necessarily the locomotives, but should help on that front.

Ahh this helps as well..

[wm3798]

Is that the same Cleveland Night Express that was discontinued in 1962?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Night_Express

Well.  That seems unlikely, doesn't it?  I was 5 or 6, and we left from Camden Station.  Perhaps the train was one of the nameless survivors that lingered to the end.

Thanks for the fact check.
Lee

[jagged ben]

Regarding western or midwestern rainbow-era Amtrak, there was no California Zephyr at the time because the D&RGW didn't joint Amtrak at first.  Instead there was the San Francisco Zephyr (which didn't go all the way to San Francisco btw).   If you want to model that train you should pre-order the Rapido SP 3/4 dome in SP flat side general service (or maybe Amtrak Phase I).  A mix of Kato Cal Zephr, City of LA, and whatever Centralia or other SP (general service) you can scrape up would be a decent rendition of that train if you don't care about car-by-car accuracy.  GN and NP cars also showed up on that train.  UP and/or Amtrak E8s or E9s to pull it. 

[nkalanaga]

If you want a real "rainbow train", the early Amtrak Empire Builder would be ideal, and save a little money, as it could share cars with the BN version.

Cars I personally saw in the EB, in Pasco, 1971-1974, include:
GN "Empire Builder"
GN Big Sky Blue
GN Cascade Green/White
BN Cascade Green/White
NP "Loewy" 2-tone Green
SP&S "Broad Stripe" Dark Green/Yellow
CB&Q stainless
UP Yellow ("Pacific" series sleepers were an almost daily part of the train)
Amtrak Platinum Mist (smoothside) and stainless
and a few SP, Santa Fe, and SCL cars.

I have seen photos of the ex-MILW "Superdomes" in the Empire Builder, in Amtrak paint, but never personally saw one.  The SP 3/4 domes did appear, very rarely, and I did see one of them.  Usually the train had a, ex-GN  Great Dome Lounge, which nobody yet makes.

Power was leased BN/GN/NP Fs until the SDP40Fs appeared, so it wasn't uncommon to have four units in four paint schemes.

The train started out as primarily GN with some NP, but quickly became more varied, especially when the North Coast Hiawatha took a bunch of the cars.  Amtrak ended up leasing GN and NP cars they hadn't originally bought, and the trains became even more varied.

[Point353]

Well.  That seems unlikely, doesn't it?  I was 5 or 6, and we left from Camden Station.  Perhaps the train was one of the nameless survivors that lingered to the end.

Thanks for the fact check.
Lee

According to a C&O/B&O timetable from 1968, Cleveland was being served by a Greyhound bus connection from Akron union station.
The only two westbound trains on that route were the B&O Diplomat and the Capitol Limited.
It was about a 12-hour trip, with the Diplomat departing in the evening and arriving mid-morning, while the Capitol Limited departed mid-afternoon and arrived in the wee hours.
The Diplomat last ran in 1968, so if you traveled later than that it would have been on the Capitol Limited.

Capitol Limited in 1969:

[wm3798]

It's possible I was 4 and it was the Diplomat, since I definitely remember the late departure and the lights on in the train shed.
Sadly, my mom passed away in July, so I have no first hand witnesses left to interrogate.  (My brother may have been there, but he had the attention span of a tse tse fly!)
And Akron would have been close enough that my aunt came to collect us at the depot.

Lee

[JoeD]

Not seeing any southern pacific....how come???   LOL   

(wasn't sure if I should put this in N scale or prototype).. When in doubt.. N scale.  Feel free to move to Prototype if desired.

I want to model some Mid 60s'/Early 70s' Passenger Trains in N scale.  My plan is to use primarily Kato cars.. Not looking for 100% accuracy.. just a general likeness.

Here are the trains I'd like to model..
1: Mid 1960s NYC 20th Century Limited.
2: Late 1960s Penn Central New York - Chicago Train  I was thinking 48/49.. but maybe 28/29 or 62/63
3: Burlington Northern Empire Builder.
4: Amtrak Mid 1970s Eastern Rainbow train..  Something GG1 powered..
5: Amtrak Midwestern Rainbow train.. Like a Cal Zephyr
Maybe..
6: Amtrak Western Rainbow Train.. Like .an El Capitan/Chief.

The BN Train and Amtrak Trains are fairly well documented in photos and videos..

The NYC Train I found a consist from 1965 and it seems pretty straight forward.
    Westbound train #25—20th Century Limited, on March 30, 1965,
    E7A diesel locomotive: NYC 4025;
    E8A diesel locomotive: NYC 4080;
    E7A diesel locomotive: NYC 4007;
    Class MB Baggage-mail car: NYC 5018;
    Class CSB Baggage-dormitory car: NYC 8979;
    Class PB Coach: NYC 2942;
    Class DG Grill-diner: NYC 450;
    Class PAS Sleepercoach (16-Single Room 10-Double Room): NYC 10811;
    Class PAS Sleepercoach (16-Single Room 10-Double Room): NYC 10817;
    Class PS Sleeper (22-roomette): NYC 10355 BOSTON HARBOR;
    Class DKP Kitchen-Lounge Car: NYC 477;
    Class DE Dining Room Car: NYC 406;
    Class PS Sleeper (10-roomette 6-double bedroom): NYC 10171 CURRENT RIVER;
    Class PS Sleeper (12-double bedroom): NYC 10511 PORT OF DETROIT;
    Class PS Sleeper (12-double bedroom): NYC 10501 PORT BYRON;
    Class PSO Sleeper-Buffet-Lounge-Observation (5-double bedroom): NYC 10633 HICKORY CREEK.

Where I'm having trouble is Penn Central..
I have found Zero consist lists... I've found pictures of cars and some short trains but probably not 48/49
I see the timetable listing that show what was available on the trains.

Would it would be appropriate to mix in some NYC Equipment?
for Ex NYC cars I have found plenty of photos of stainless steel cars, but Zero example of Two Tone Gray or Pullman Green cars.
I was hoping to take some left over cars from my 20th century set and toss them into the PC Train..

Thoughts?

Sources I have found so far.
Multi-Modal Ways for Timetables.  https://www.multimodalways.org/archives/rrs/PCTC/PCTC%20TTs/PCTC%20TTs.html
The Passenger Car Photo Archive. http://passcarphotos.rypn.org/Indices/PC2.htm
MBernero's Great Flikr page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/albums/72157676403687876/
Fred's N scale Passenger car guide: http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/

[learmoia]

Not seeing any southern pacific....how come???   LOL   

I wanted to have at least 1 SP car mixed in.. I liked the idea of having a Rapido 3/4 dome car

Seaboard cars seemed common as well. So I need to come up with one of those.