Switching Preferences

[basementcalling]

What type of industry do folks consider the most interesting/challenging to switch during operations? Prototype offerings are limitless from single car commodity sidings with a conveyor discharge between the tracks to huge loading/unloading facilities that handle unit trains in a mere 8-12 hours. But which will translate better to a model railroad? Does it get boring creeping a cut of hoppers at a scale 2mph around a balloon track? Or will operators get frustrated swapping a cut of cars at a time through a single unloading point on a stub end track?

What about modern warehouses with multiple spots for cars along a single spur? How about a transload facility, be it a yard for cars offloaded by trucks accessing it, or a team track for a center beam or boxcar of products? I know corn syrup cars can create switching headaches because of the need to leave certain cars on spot because of the various grades of syrup used

Would you rather switch a "town" with a variety of small industries, or a modern large paper mill or factory with spots for multiple products and types of cars?

What about a container yard or autorack unloading facility? Scrap yard, wood chipping yard etc...

Trying to get a better sense of possible industries to include on a new harbor/industrial switching driven layout.

And didn't we used to have a function that let us create a poll for responses?

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Interesting questions.

I think it very much varies based on era.

For example, there are very few "single car" industries on class ones, especially their mainlines, today.

Personally, I've always enjoyed those big multi-spot, multi-car industries: paper mills come to mind, but there are a surprising number of things like that (refineries, tires, various other parts of the automotive supply chain).

However, again, it is really era dependent. These days, those bigger industries often have their own switchers (or Trackmobiles), so the way a railroad serves them is "leave a cut of cars on the siding" and the industry itself handles spotting them where they go.

[Maletrain]

In terms of what I like to do, I like a variety of jobs.  So, basically some of each. 

What I don't like to do is wait around for permission from the dispatcher to use the main for switching or running around, because it seems like the dispatcher is already spending too much time talking to other people about other problems.  It is boring waiting to get a word in edgewise on the radio or telephone.

So, in designing a layout, I suggest that you think about how each of the industries are switched, so that it can be done with minimal disruption of other operators.  If it is a one or two person operator layout with minimal through traffic to interfere with switching operations that need the mainline, then just use the mainline.  That is prototypical for real roads that don't have heavy mainline traffic.  But, if there are multiple operators and lots of mainline traffic, I think it is important to provide switching leads and/or sidings that allow most work to be done without fouling the main.  The space and time compactions used in model railroading just make the mainline too busy, compared to the time available on a real railroad.

Regarding moving strings of cars slowly through unloaders or loaders, I would just do that with the old 0-5-0 during staging between sessions, because it is boring.  But, running a string of cars across an old fashioned scale, where each needs to be disconnected for weighing and the loco needs to stay off the scale track, tends to be interesting - up to a point.  If the string of cars is not too long, and the magnetic uncoupling is working smoothly, this can be an interesting show.

Just my preferences, YRMV.

[C855B]

Steel mills.

[mu26aeh]

PH Glatfelter, now Pixelle, in Spring Grove, PA gets 100 car coal trains with 3 locomotives from NS every couple of weeks.  They cut the train in thirds and unload it in blocks, backing their cuts thru the unloader onto a loop train within the plant property.  It makes for an interesting process.  They put 2 units on the loaded cars, and leave the 3rd to shove the empties west of town.  Once all 3 cuts are unloaded, the put the consist back together and leave town.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/sNKVGx9gY2qaJ2aYA

[wm3798]

The first thing I built on my old WM layout was my very impressionistic model of the Westvaco Paper Mill at Luke.


All kinds of inbound traffic, and a big warehouse to distribute the outbound.  Coal, pulpwood, chips and chemicals in, with a small yard and several sidings, it was served from three directions by multiple different trains.

Apart from the yard, it was the busiest area of the layout, with the added complexity of having the junction between the main and the branch to Elkins right in the middle of it.  (It was not true to the prototype in any substantial way).

I think if your bag is industrial switching, there's two major directions you can take.  If you're a steam era modeler, you can run a busy branchline where every 1/2 mile there's several single car sidings to work, as well as a major shipper, perhaps a steel fabricator or manufacturing plant, meat packing etc.  (More than one major shipper would likely overwhelm your model yard unless you have a lot of space to work in.)

A more modern switching layout might have one major commodity shipper, like grain or a quarry, paper or cement (Think Maryland Midland), with maybe a handful of odds and ends, but not many.  A bulk terminal or auto distributor might also be a possibility.

Since I'm now pretty space, time and budget impaired, I'm leaning into the idea of doing a late industrial line, where all but a few shippers have dried up, and the train still runs because the ICC is still reviewing the abandonment application.  Marginally maintained, low car volume, with maybe one shipper down at the end justifying that it hasn't already been converted into a trail.  So maybe three times a week a GP9 or an SW something or other gets fired up to go shuffle ten or a dozen cars, working out of a small interchange yard near the main (a nicely scenicked loop that the other trains can run on while I'm switching) and it will go rocking and rolling down the weedy right of way and go about its business.  A run around at the end of track, which used to be a passing siding when the line went through to the next town, serves as the terminus, the boarded up depot standing watch through the tall grass.

Here the crew reverses the consist, and heads back home, working the trailing point sidings along the way.



And that'll work just fine for me.
Lee

[jdcolombo]

Steel mills.

Yep.

On my late-1950's layout, I have basically 4 main switching areas.  Three are towns, with 4-5 industries each, and then I have the steel mill.  An op session on my layout lasts 3 - 3.5 hours.  By far the most interesting job to me (and several operators who have commented) is the steel mill.  My mill scene has a blast furnace (torpedo and slag cars, plus a high line with two tracks for loading the furnace); a basic oxygen furnace for taking the iron from the blast furnace and finishing into steel ingots (probably a bit ahead of its time; most integrated mills in the late 1950's would have used open hearths); and two finishing mills, one for tubes and structural shapes, the other for coils and wire.  The variety of cars going into and out of the mill is endless - open hoppers, short covered hoppers, gons, flats, boxcars, etc.  Basically any kind of rolling stock you'd see in the 1950's other than reefers or early auto racks could end up at the mill for one reason or another. 

But . . . a scene like this takes space.  Lots of it, if you are going to model buildings of realistic size.  The scene on my layout is 24 feet long and 30" deep.

Here are a couple of photos:

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John C.

[chessie system fan]

I enjoy switching with no derailments and turnouts that work. Enough yard space to do the job helps, too.  Other than that, I'm not picky. 

But if I had to choose, I tend to enjoy coal mine operations (which get delivered to the steel mill) or general, small-town freight ops.

[Curtis Kyger]

(I'm running circa 1972).  My favorite is a large grain elevator. I have bulk grain arriving to a grain inspection track; then box cars with inspected grain go to one unload track while covered hoppers go to another. There are storage tracks to absorb surges in arrivals. The mill also produces flour both in bulk, which gets loaded into air slide hoppers, and bagged, which gets loading in high quality box cars.  There is plenty of shuffling around at this plant to keep me interested for hours. It's a large facility: inbound trains to this one mill (which has it's own yard tracks) run around 18 cars with outbound trains about the same.

[Dupesy]

A buddy of mine has a pretty substantial HO layout.  There can be 10 of us there operating at a time; many of the group enjoy the switching/local jobs.  I worked one last night, starts at a smaller yard, train was already built.  Run west to the town served by this local, there's a fuel dealer (4-6 cars), lumber yard (2-4 cars), grain elevator (6-10 cars) and a 3-track car float (12 cars).  (the float moves and brings cars to a section of the second level of the layout; that's another story) The switching sound simple, but its not.  The design is a puzzle, there isn't enough room to just do the work and go.  Pull the industries, run around, set the new cars, run around, repeat.  Some of the cars pulled you have to take west to another yard, pick more cars up and come back and spot them, then take the eastbounds back to the yard the job started at.  Part of the enjoyment is not just what sort of switching it is, but figuring out just how to get it all done and not use the 0-5-0.  It took me 2 hours of switchin' and bitchin' to get the assignment done. 

[C855B]

Lee mentioned portland cement plants. Absolutely. Limestone from the mine is typically by rail, truck or conveyor; large plant near where I grew up had a 3-foot-gauge RR replaced by a conveyor belt in the 1980s. Incoming loads would be gypsum, and coal to fire the furnaces. Outbound would be in hoppers for bulk or boxcars if they were packaging sacks at the plant. Lots of car shuffling to be had.

Cemex has a really big plant north of Victorville, CA. They have their own railroad (standard gauge) to the mine, a loop which I think doubles for dumping limestone and bulk loading, and scads of tracks for inbound empties, outbound loads, and so forth. This plant has been around for a long time and is still a big rail operation. Worth exploring on a satellite map.

[basementcalling]

You all make excellent posts and good contributions to the discussion. I'll share more of my thoughts here, but please keep talking. I am determined to pick a few more brains more completely than I did in the planning stages of my previous layout in this space.

I will most likely be fairly modern in my era. I don't have much affection for the trains of my 20s, as they were 90% bathtub gons behind CSX or NS Dash 8s, with a decreasing number of SD40-2s in the mix. To me, all modern coal cars tend to blend together despite the different prototypes in use today. And while a coal themed harbor layout, or one centered around a power plant or coal using industry could feature it on a grand scale in N, I need more variety in my consists than an unbroken string of black diamonds headed to be unloaded onto a ship or consumed to make electricity.

Recently I discovered the NPBL RR and Berkeley Yard, which was actually featured in an MR layout plan article by Bob Sprague. CSX and NS have a joint operating agreement, though NS supplies the NPBL engines. Atlas did their 5660 heritage unit GP38 - ex Conrail @Ed Kapuscinski  , so modeling it is possible in N with additional NS GP38-2s in the mix, including some remaining high hood versions. Bob's choices of industries for his design are interesting, as he left out the large Purdue grain elevator that unloads CSX grain unit trains. 7 track loop yard to hold 1 train, with overflow yards added along the NPBL ROW to hold additional cars dropped by a local, or empties spotted after unloading. I think the facility uses a track mobile, but a full sized model would take a 5 ft wide by 7 foot long mini peninsula. Even selectively compressed, not sure shuttling cars around a loop and through the single track unloading shed wouldn't get dull pretty quickly.

Bob also left off the tank farms that dot the area, as well as the US Salt facility, and a smaller cement dealer served by a long spur off the NPBL main. A US Gypsum plant and a Lehigh Cement export facility are next to the yard and had to be included. A good place for those Maryland Midland 2 bay hoppers to show up along with a lot of NS ones too.  Across the harbor bridge is a very compressed Norfolk Naval Shipyard that receives steel gons, USNX  green navy tank cars and a few other types I'm not sure of because Google Earth blurs some sections of the shipyard out. Then that line ends in a loop for the underused CSX served Portsmouth Marine Container Terminal - which due to strange access rules cannot efficiently compete with NS's container traffic near Lambert's Point. There's also a NOVA Chemical plant and a now abandoned smaller grain facility without concrete silos. It was an all corrugated Butler Bin style affair till the bitter end. It's a really well done plan, but it doesn't fit well in my space. Parts would fit Lee's idea for an almost abandoned line. Most of the grain bins are now heavily rusted and wearing out.

][url]https://www.bobstrackplans.com/single-post/2009/11/28/norfolk-portsmouth-belt-line[url]]https://www.bobstrackplans.com/single-post/2009/11/28/norfolk-portsmouth-belt-line[url]][url]https://www.bobstrackplans.com/single-post/2009/11/28/norfolk-portsmouth-belt-line[url][/url][/url]


I am leaning much more to a Lance Mindheim styled simple plan designed primarily for solo operations given I live in a relative model railroader desert stuck between the active NTRAK clubs in Richmond and Northern Virginia. Not sure there are enough interested operators for a layout designed for a crew of 4-10 folks to draw enough people to run it. That size is probably more complicated than I have time to finish before I move from this location, So I agree some with Lee's outlook, but not taken as far as he does to near abandonment. I want a bustling area to serve.

More than one major shipper would likely overwhelm your model yard unless you have a lot of space to work in.

A more modern switching layout might have one major commodity shipper, like grain or a quarry, paper or cement (Think Maryland Midland), with maybe a handful of odds and ends, but not many.  A bulk terminal or auto distributor might also be a possibility.

I tend to think 1 large industry like a paper mill, and maybe an auto rack unloading yard, along with a cement facility. Aggregate yard is another overlooked good industry, and a break bulk pier would be excellent for using those MT windmill flats in something other than through trains.

Container trains might run through on the way to their yard, but unless I get a burning desire to model a lot of paved real estate and big cranes, their facility will be off layout in staging. They could be a modern version of a passenger train running through requiring operators switching other industries to clear the main for the high priority train. Long cars means probably a 20-24 inch minimum radius for curves, less on industrial tracks the 89 foot cars won't traverse however. Switching cars of this length in N, especially with the new ones coming with body mount couplers installed, means 18 inch curves are probably too tight for reliable operations.

I've been looking at Bernie Kempenski's harbor layout book. I really like his Port of Beaumont layout, but I think it could use a little more variety for types of cars. I'll probably be free lancing, as most ports are far too large to model completely. Port of Tacoma appeals to me, though not featured in his book, as do certain sections of Portland. LA and Long Beach are far to convoluted to want to replicate here though Bernie's Port of Los Angeles project layout was excellent.

 
Since I'm now pretty space, time and budget impaired, I'm leaning into the idea of doing a late industrial line, where all but a few shippers have dried up, and the train still runs because the ICC is still reviewing the abandonment application.  ...

Here the crew reverses the consist, and heads back home, working the trailing point sidings along the way.

And that'll work just fine for me.
Lee

I've got a 19x20 room to work with, but want the layout, again Lance Mindheim style, to probably avoid a large central peninsula unless it feature stubb end industries. I had his first 3 books about industrial layouts on my nightstand. They did not survive the smoke and mold damage.    The blob with the turn back loop takes so much space, and now that I am about to move back into a 95% brand new house, I don't feel the need to cram in as much model railroad as physically possible like I did with the Idaho Belt. That layout was too big, and dominated the room. I want to at least have enough space for a smaller sofa and a TV under the layout for enjoying my favorite streaming series. Planning on cutting the FIOS TV connection but keeping the Internet.

The variety of cars going into and out of the mill is endless - open hoppers, short covered hoppers, gons, flats, boxcars, etc.  Basically any kind of rolling stock you'd see in the 1950's other than reefers or early auto racks could end up at the mill for one reason or another.

But . . . a scene like this takes space.  Lots of it, if you are going to model buildings of realistic size.  The scene on my layout is 24 feet long and 30" deep.

John, I was able to rescue all the major buildings from my 11 foot long paper mill complex off the Idaho Belt before it went to the scrapper because of smoke and water damage in the basement, so I already agree about the appeal of a larger industry as a focus. The challenge is to try to craft a believable mix of secondary industries to engage other operators if I ever host a real operating session, but have a car management system flexible enough to allow me to operate any 1 or more of the industries solo for an hour or so max depending on my mood.

Sorry to ramble on (Cue Led Zeppelin riff) but after spending all day cleaning, packing, cleaning, and more packing, only to have to wait one more day to move back home because the county occupancy inspector flunked my house for 2 reasons, I need a mental break. The contractor promised the issues were easy to fix and they'll get the occupancy permit tomorrow so my trains and I can reoccupy our home space. If my luck holds, the repacking company will deliver the majority of my rolling stock collection on Thursday or Friday. But I think they tossed all my big white foam boxes from some company I can't remember, and the red nylon carry bags. Anything paper or fabric was mold contaminated and had to be ditched, but those N scale boxes weren't listed on the damaged contents report - so as of now no insurance money to replace them. I had 8 full ones and 4 partially filled.

[OldEastRR]

Your link to the layout plan doesn't work. You've got too many "urls" in them.

[peteski]

Your link to the layout plan doesn't work. You've got too many "urls" in them.

True, but it is not that difficult to figure it out.
https://www.bobstrackplans.com/single-post/2009/11/28/norfolk-portsmouth-belt-line

[Ed Kapuscinski]

What about a simple BIDS / Transload terminal? Lots of potential there.

The challenge is... cars.

Here are two good local examples:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2641568,-76.5902363,295a,35y,39.44t/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2760061,-76.5581633,173a,35y,270h,39.5t/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

They're usually a mix of hoppers and tank cars. The exact mix depends on the area (for example, there's not much use for bulk feed or fertilizer in Charm City, but Strasburg had to build an entirely new yard to handle that business). You can mix in some building supplies in boxcars too.

Sure, it's a big paved expanse, but there are plenty of detailing options to make it interesting, and the complexity of switching it is up to you, from "pull everything and swap it" to "replace the third car on the second track and remove the second car on the third car and put everything else back where it was by 9am".