Author Topic: N Scale Track Speeodmeter...  (Read 1489 times)

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Sumner

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N Scale Track Speeodmeter...
« on: June 22, 2024, 01:34:07 PM »
+5
I've started to speed match my locos to the 128 speed steps on the throttles I use. Speed step 10 = 10 mph, 45 = 45 mph and so on up to speed step 65 which is 65 mph. For most all of my locos that will be the top speed. For some locos used for passenger service I might up that to speed step 90 which would be 90 mph. Even with the passenger locos having a higher top speed 65 would still be 65 mph.

I feel there are a couple advantages to speed matching to the speed steps vs. to another loco which is a common practice. If all the locos are speed match to the DCC speed steps they will be closely matched to each other. If you consist 3 locos and run the throttle to speed step 50 they will all be going 50 mph. Also I like knowing that if I see 22 on my throttle screen I know the loco is going a scale 22 mph.

I haven't so far found it very hard to speed match them like above with JMRI's DecoderPro. My ESU decoders have easy settings to use for the max, middle and low end of the speed range for a loco. Setting those in a few minutes by setting the throttle on 65 and then messing with the max number so that is a scale 65 mph and then doing that for the mid and low end usually ends up with the loco being very close to scale mph from 0-65 mph (speed step 0 to 65). There are other settings in DecoderPro to fine tune it but so far doing the above has proved to be just fine. The Digitrax decoders I have done this with so far have only 2 settings but still they seem to match up pretty close after a few minutes.

Locos that won't be consisted I'm also not as worried about getting exact. If my throttle say 22 and it is going 19 mph are 24 mph isn't as big a deal as if the loco is going to be used in a consist.

The slow part to doing the above has been doing it by timing a full or partial lap on my oval test track and then seeing what scale speed that is. I know the length (circumference) of a lap and from it and the time can figure the scale mph. I've set up a spreadsheet that has the times for a lap for 0 mph to 90 mph in seconds and use it.

Recently I saw a YouTube where the person was using a track speedometer that sits above and alongside the track. The loco runs through it and the scale speed shows on the display. I looked for one to see how much it is but I think it has been discontinued. Finishing the HandCab project and doing a little coding for it and what I did for the turntable project got me thinking building and coding this should not be very hard compared to those projects so that is the plan.

As I write this there has been no code written and I'm still finishing up the design for the physical part of the speedometer so no guarantees that this will be a successful build. You will notice that it is designed to be used on a curved section of track. My test layout doesn't have any real straight sections so needed this type of layout. I do plan on making a second one that can be used on a straight section of track to use on the main layout when it is further along of if there is a demand.



Took about a day to design the vertical uprights. Printed them and wanted to make some changes so tweaked the design a bit and printed what is shown in an image further below and above.



Hopefully another day will be all that is needed to finish the case type part that will house the electronics on the top. Some of the items, like the part shown above to hold the ESP32 were stolen from my HandCab design. Having a program with the power of Fusion 360 that you can use free if you are non-commercial is wonderful.



I plan on doing another of these for use on straight track. Shouldn't take long using most of the elements of this one.



I printed the uprights with the resin printer as Chitubox makes it easy and quick to put in the supports for something like above. I'll probably use the filament printer for the rest thought as it works well for printing the rest of the speedometer and has a larger build volume. I designed the uprights so that they would fit in the AnyCubic Photon M3's build volume and they barely did.



The parts come in under $50 for the speedometer.

For the whole build of this throttle go ( HERE ).

Sumner
Working in N Scale ---Modeling UP from late 40's to early 70's very loosely......

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CNR5529

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Re: N Scale Track Speeodmeter...
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2024, 03:56:59 PM »
+1
I will be following this with great interest! Really like the idea of tying speed steps with actual speed, so all locos can be MUed. My prototype absolutely mixed freight units with passenger units on slower trains, so this would allow that while still allowing passenger units to run at higher speeds on their own.

How will you handle locomotives that run a bit faster at the low end of the speed table? Ie if at speed step 1 it goes faster than 1mph, do you still have to bring up all the other locos to match that?
Because why not...

brill27mcb

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Re: N Scale Track Speeodmeter...
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2024, 04:00:31 PM »
+1
Sorry to see that the Accutrack II speedometer is no longer available. It had a lot of built-in flexibility.

Rich K.
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Sumner

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Re: N Scale Track Speeodmeter...
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2024, 06:17:37 PM »
0
...How will you handle locomotives that run a bit faster at the low end of the speed table? Ie if at speed step 1 it goes faster than 1mph, do you still have to bring up all the other locos to match that?

I'm wondering how much of a problem that will be.  So far I've only consisting 2-3 locos at a time with no other cars as my test track isn't long enough to do a whole lot more.  With my HandCab the bottom notch is 4 mph and usually have them running 15 or so fairly quickly and there hasn't been a problem with the engines I've run like this.  I know some of them are probably 2-4 mph different in different parts of the speed range but also haven't seen that as being a problem.  Not sure how close the engines are to each other if someone is running DC locos in a consist.  Often a consist helps to get some locos through a short electrical pickup problem with no apparent problem.  I'd be interested in hearing from others that consist about how close their locos are speed wise from a scale 0 to let's say 60 mph?

Most of my locos will probably never be in a consist but nice know that I'm seeing fairly true scale speed when they are running.

Sorry to see that the Accutrack II speedometer is no longer available. It had a lot of built-in flexibility.

Rich K.

So that I'm not getting possibly an untrue rumor started I'm not positive that Accutrack II speedometers are no longer available.  I assumed that since I couldn't find anyone that had them in stock or mentioned they would be back in stock.  Anyone else know the status for sure?

Sumner
Working in N Scale ---Modeling UP from late 40's to early 70's very loosely......

Under$8.00 Servo turnout Control --- 3D Printed Model RR Objects -- My Home Page

http://1fatgmc.com/RailRoad/RR Main/Link Page Menu.html

samusi01

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Re: N Scale Track Speeodmeter...
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2024, 10:44:28 PM »
0



From here: https://sprog.us.com/shop.html

Note, particularly, the comment under "out of stock" on the right. @Sumner, thanks for stepping up. Have you considered making a version that would work for our larger scale friends? I will be lending my Accutrak to an HO modeler north of town to help him out. Also, what radii is the curved one designed around or did I miss it? How wide is it inside? Wide enough to deal with overhang on a Big Boy or similar outsize power?

Sumner

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Re: N Scale Track Speeodmeter...
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2024, 09:03:07 AM »
0
..... Have you considered making a version that would work for our larger scale friends? ......what radii is the curved one designed around or did I miss it? How wide is it inside? Wide enough to deal with overhang on a Big Boy or similar outsize power?

Thanks for the input and please don't take any of the following personally as it isn't directed at you but about where I'm at in life now. 

Here is where I'm basically at in life and working on projects that aren't directly related to my layout.  I'm 80 and in good health for 80 but I've also lost two wife's and that has made me appreciate the time I've had and what I have left and made me selfish in how I use it.  If I make something for my layout be it a 3D designed building an electrical project or something else I try and take the time, and it does take considerable time, to document it and put the print files or other info needed up for anyone that can use it.  Generally I'm not willing to do much more than that as far as special projects while I still have the energy to get out in the shop and work on the layout.  I did just spend about 2 months working every day on the HandCab since I really believe it might eventually be used fairly widespread so wanted to pass that on, but it is time to get back to actually working on the layout.

The first attempt at this as far as the physical part I had 1 1/4 inches of inside clearance.  The radius is about 12 1/2".  An E9 could barely sneak through for the reasons you mentioned.  So throw that print away and spend some more design time, can't just widen it or the sensors won't line up being on a curve so a little more CAD time needed.  More resin and another print and feel with 1 3/8" now most everything I have will probably go through it, probably not my DDA40X's or my DD35A but I can do those the 'time a lap' way.

I'll consider doing a straight one for HO (if this one works) if someone is welling to work on it in a 'timely' manner:

1.  They buy the electrical parts up front before I do the CAD work, not sometime down the road after I do the design work.
2.  They get me the dimensions I need, inside clearances, so I don't have to track that down.
3.  They know how to load a program on the ESP32.
4.  They have a printer with enough build volume to print the parts.
5.  They print the parts very soon after the CAD work is done so that this doesn't stretch out over a longer time period.
6.  They get it together and let me know if changes need to be made.
7.  They are willing to possibly print more than one to get a working version.

Something similar on a straight N Scale one:

1.  They buy the electrical parts before I do the CAD work
2.  They are prepared to print the parts and build the speedometer as soon as the CAD work is finished.
3.  They get it together and let me know if changes need to be made.
4.  They are willing to possibly print more than one to get a working version.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm being unreasonable but the above is the result of past experience in working on something like this where someone is going to do something but never does and I spent my time on it for what?

Sumner
Working in N Scale ---Modeling UP from late 40's to early 70's very loosely......

Under$8.00 Servo turnout Control --- 3D Printed Model RR Objects -- My Home Page

http://1fatgmc.com/RailRoad/RR Main/Link Page Menu.html

gi-depp

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Re: N Scale Track Speeodmeter...
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2024, 01:03:04 PM »
0
I'm working with this one:



I take the CV 5 and CV6, that works for me.

mid speed 72 km/h and full speed 144 km/h for all lokos what I have.

Distance between the sensors 50cm.
Union Pacific, Amtrak, VRE and US Army

samusi01

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Re: N Scale Track Speeodmeter...
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2024, 07:47:36 PM »
+1
Sorry if it sounds like I'm being unreasonable but the above is the result of past experience in working on something like this where someone is going to do something but never does and I spent my time on it for what?

I quite understand - time has value (aside from the monetary bit).

jagged ben

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Re: N Scale Track Speeodmeter...
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2024, 12:13:22 AM »
+1
I'm just going to chime in to say that matching scale speed to speed steps (or throttle percentage, or a ratio of either, but in any case some sort of fixed and defined standard) is really the only sensible way to do it if you have more locos than fingers on one hand.  Trying to match to a particular locomotive will just not work well, mainly because it will change over time.   Myself I have a test oval with measured lengths and I use a stop watch and spreadsheet.   But I just went to friend's house yesterday who has the Accutrack and showed him how he could do what I do using that, and of course that works even better.

Digitrax decoders do have a start voltage CV.

peteski

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Re: N Scale Track Speeodmeter...
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2024, 01:26:23 AM »
+1
Digitrax decoders do have a start voltage CV.

According to the NMRA DCC specifications, CV2 while not mandatory it is recommended, where as CV5 and CV6 are optional.  Pretty much most of the current brands of NMRA compatible decoder should have a usable CV2
. . . 42 . . .

Lackawannae8

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Re: N Scale Track Speeodmeter...
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2024, 04:39:39 PM »
0
Id like to get my hands on one
IG: the_lackawanna_cutoff_n_scale

I build cool N SCALE things with DCC, Lights & Sound
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learmoia

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Re: N Scale Track Speeodmeter...
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2024, 10:43:35 PM »
+1
I'm just going to chime in to say that matching scale speed to speed steps (or throttle percentage, or a ratio of either, but in any case some sort of fixed and defined standard) is really the only sensible way to do it if you have more locos than fingers on one hand.  Trying to match to a particular locomotive will just not work well, mainly because it will change over time.   Myself I have a test oval with measured lengths and I use a stop watch and spreadsheet.   But I just went to friend's house yesterday who has the Accutrack and showed him how he could do what I do using that, and of course that works even better.

Digitrax decoders do have a start voltage CV.

Years ago I had this theory and did Percentage=MPH (0-100)  Then I figured out approx where each speed step was on the percentage scale.

So you set your speed to 1%, and adjust your first step till the loco hits 1mph (or shows signs of life)..
Then you set to 13% and set the next step until the loco is doing 13MPH
and on and on through the 28 steps..

If you have a loco that you want to max out a speed then you just flat line the curve at the CV for your top end speed.  (But if your running a faster loco you have to remember your max speed loco..

(I wonder if I still have that spread sheet.. )


Sumner

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Re: N Scale Track Speeodmeter...
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2024, 01:09:07 PM »
0
Continuing on....



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Short Video ( HERE ) or above.

For the whole build of this speedometer go ( HERE ).

Sumner
Working in N Scale ---Modeling UP from late 40's to early 70's very loosely......

Under$8.00 Servo turnout Control --- 3D Printed Model RR Objects -- My Home Page

http://1fatgmc.com/RailRoad/RR Main/Link Page Menu.html

Sumner

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Re: N Scale Track Speeodmeter...
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2024, 02:22:00 PM »
+2
N Scale SpeedTrap Speedometer – Pt. 3...


Above is the wiring diagram. I would print it out and use it for the color coding of the wiring. It will make wiring a lot easier if you follow what I've done above and what you will see in the build. Will save a lot of confusion. Notice that I used 5 wire colors the ones in one of the two choices of colors for the wires I've recommended.

If it is hard to print the image above here is a link to it alone ( Image HERE ).

============== Parts =====================

The following parts list shows where I bought the parts. Use it but also by using it you will be able to get a description of the parts used that you could use to search for parts from other suppliers.

1 - ESP32 LOLIN32 Lite …....................................................... I bought 3 for $16 ( HERE ) but here is one for $7 ( HERE ).
1 - SUNFOUNDER IIC/I2C/TWI LCD1602 Display ….............. $10.00 ( HERE )
1 - On/Off switch …...................................................................... 10 for $7.00 ( HERE ).
1 - 3 stage Adafruit 4410 USB charger ...................................... $6.00 ( HERE ) or ( HERE ).
1 – Adafruit 3v to 5v booster …................................................... $2.95 ( HERE ) or $7.00 ( HERE ) with free freight.
1 - Battery ….................................................................................. $11.00 (1100 mAh ( HERE )) or $14.00 (2000mAh ( HERE )).
1 or 2 or none JST connectors …............................................. 10 for $7.00 ( HERE ).

NOTE:  I didn't take the time to put in all the links for the parts above buy you can find them ( HERE )  along with any other links show on this post that don't work.


.



I make up solder pads for most of the projects I do and also at times for decoder installs. They are an easy way to attach a lot of wires together in a small space. For this build I only needed one that was divided into 3 sections. I started by making the paper pattern shown above. I only took about 15 minutes to make it. If you haven't tried this approach I'd recommend trying it on this project.



The PCB sheets are really cheap on eBay. For instance what I use for the above and cutting N scale PCB ties for handlaid turnouts ( 8 pcs Double Sided Copper Clad Circuit Board Laminate FR-4 .030 for $8.00 with free shipping ) . If that link doesn't stay active here is a general one ( HERE ).


.



I ran a black wire from the esp32's GND pin (just out of sight at the bottom of the image above) to the center solder pad. That will be were all of the negative wires will attach. The 3.3v esp32 pin is at the top right of the esp32 above. I ran a red wire from it to the solder pad above it. Everything that gets 3.3 volts will be soldered to that pad.

The display needs 5 volts so ran a red wire from the solder pad on the left to the voltage in on the back of the display. The negative wire on the display goes to the middle negative solder pad and the SCL & SDA wires from the display go to the esp32 as shown above.



The black wire of the reset button switch above goes to the negative solder pad and the blue wire goes to pin 32 on the esp32. If you haven't soldered to these button switches be aware of heat can damage them quickly. For more on how to solder to them go ( HERE down the page ).



I added a JST plug to the wire going to the on/off LED but it probably wasn't need if you keep that wire long enough to set the case front off to the side if needed. I did do that for the wire going to the pushbutton switch on the case top and it has worked fine.


Not sure how I'll use the reset button but will probably use it to reset the display before getting and reading the next mph for the loco.



As I write this I've started on the software for the SpeedTrap Speedometer and hope to have it done shortly.

For the whole build of this speedometer go ( HERE ).

Sumner
Working in N Scale ---Modeling UP from late 40's to early 70's very loosely......

Under$8.00 Servo turnout Control --- 3D Printed Model RR Objects -- My Home Page

http://1fatgmc.com/RailRoad/RR Main/Link Page Menu.html

Sumner

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Re: N Scale Track Speeodmeter...
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2024, 09:11:06 AM »
+2
Finished the software for the SpeedTrap N scale speedometer and been testing it...
 

... does all I wanted it to do so very happy with the results.  I'll try and get the print files up soon and it doesn't cost much to build and the wiring isn't very difficult.  I'll make a straight version next.  I need this one for the 12.5" radius track on the test track where I do my decoder testing and speed matching the loco to the throttle speed steps.

Tested using the HandCab throttle and love using it more and more.

https://1fatgmc.com/RailRoad/DCC/HandCab-Index.html

More info on the SpeedTrap here...

https://1fatgmc.com/RailRoad/DCC/page-30.html


Sumner
Working in N Scale ---Modeling UP from late 40's to early 70's very loosely......

Under$8.00 Servo turnout Control --- 3D Printed Model RR Objects -- My Home Page

http://1fatgmc.com/RailRoad/RR Main/Link Page Menu.html