Replacement Motor For Kato F7B

[mmagliaro]

Here is how I get things like this off when they are really stubborn and a gear puller either won't fit or can't get it to budge.

Cut a slot in a small plate of stainless steel using a Dremel with a cutoff wheel.  (Stainless is tough, so you might need several cutoff disks).  Get the thickest steel you can that will fit between there.  Stainless is really tough and rigid, which is why I like it for this.

Slip that in between the motor and flywheel, (like a "V plate").  Hang the whole thing between the jaws of a vise (motor hanging down between the jaws, plate across the jaws, flywheel sticking up).

From above, use a small nail punch to start tapping the shaft out with a hammer.  You don't wail on it all the way through.
Once you get it to move a little, you can cut the shank off an old drill bit with the Dremel and use that as a punch.  Just hold
it in needlenose pliers and tap tap tap the shaft out the rest of the way with a hammer.  Since they are 1.5mm shafts, a 1/16" bit is just a little too big.   A #54 drill is ideal, being .055" (whereas the hole is .059").  Ace Hardware sells numbered drills that size for about $4.

Since the motor is hanging free by the flywheel the whole time, this does not subject the motor to any stress (as long as you don't miss and whack the motor!)

[NorsemanJack]

Regarding the Atlas/Kato business, this loco is one of the first ones made by Kato.  Years ago when I got it I asked some questions about it and was told at that time it was an Atlas/Kato unit.  Maybe it was called that due to the motor pieces being made by Atlas.  Hell, I don't know.  Given the dissing I've received by calling it Atlas/Kato, hence forth, it will be called just plain Kato.  I trust that will please everyone.

I'm going to order some of the saddle brackets (I think that's the correct term) and tryout some of the suggestions made here.  I don't have much faith in the "cut it and re-glue it" scenario but it's worth a try.  I'm also going to try modifying my wheel puller to make it fit between the motor body and the flywheel.  I'm also going to search for the complete motor with the saddle brackets installed.  That would be the preferred solution.

Doug

Perhaps you should be thanking us for helping you understand that it is NOT an Atlas item, before you start ordering replacement Atlas parts?

[peteski]

Regarding the Atlas/Kato business, this loco is one of the first ones made by Kato.  Years ago when I got it I asked some questions about it and was told at that time it was an Atlas/Kato unit.  Maybe it was called that due to the motor pieces being made by Atlas.  Hell, I don't know.  Given the dissing I've received by calling it Atlas/Kato, hence forth, it will be called just plain Kato.  I trust that will please everyone.

I'm going to order some of the saddle brackets (I think that's the correct term) and tryout some of the suggestions made here.  I don't have much faith in the "cut it and re-glue it" scenario but it's worth a try.  I'm also going to try modifying my wheel puller to make it fit between the motor body and the flywheel.  I'm also going to search for the complete motor with the saddle brackets installed.  That would be the preferred solution.

Doug

Doug, I think "dressing" is a bit of a strong word.  It was simply a "correction".  I'm curious if the source if your info stating that the F-units were Atlas/Kato units (not Kato USA ones) was someone from one of those companies, or another model railroader?  Do you recall if that loco came in an Atlas or Kato jewel box.  The Atlas/Kato locos all  were packaged in Atlas boxes with the clue of their real identity was either a Kato logo or "MADE IN JAPAN" lettering engraved in some part (like the fuel tank).  All of my 1st run F-3s came in Kato jewel boxes with blue paper inserts.

To convince you, go to Atlas' parts diagrams you will find them for the Kato-made RS and  GP units but the F-units are not there.  If the F-units were Atlas/Kato, the parts diagrams for them woudl also be available from Atlas like they are for other Atlas/Kato units.
https://shop.atlasrr.com/t-partsdiagrams.aspx

I don't believe that Atlas itself produced any mechanical parts used in any of the locos Kato made for them (like RS-3 and RS-11, or the badly proportioned Geep 7 and 9).  Actually, even older Atlas-branded locos were actually manufactured by other companies (like Roco or Rivarossi) for Atlas.

I also agree with you that I don't have much faith in gluing the saddle bracket, but I do think that melting or welding it might work.

Atlas/Kato RS-1 uses saddle bracket motor mounts, but they are different than the ones in your F-unit.
http://download.atlasrr.com/pdf/N%20ALCO%20RS1%20DIESEL%20LOCO.pdf
Which Atlas loco have you found that has the same saddle bracked as the F-units?

[peteski]

Here is how I get things like this off when they are really stubborn and a gear puller either won't fit or can't get it to budge.

Cut a slot in a small plate of stainless steel using a Dremel with a cutoff wheel.  (Stainless is tough, so you might need several cutoff disks).  Get the thickest steel you can that will fit between there.  Stainless is really tough and rigid, which is why I like it for this.

Slip that in between the motor and flywheel, (like a "V plate").  Hang the whole thing between the jaws of a vise (motor hanging down between the jaws, plate across the jaws, flywheel sticking up).

From above, use a small nail punch to start tapping the shaft out with a hammer.  You don't wail on it all the way through.
Once you get it to move a little, you can cut the shank off an old drill bit with the Dremel and use that as a punch.  Just hold
it in needlenose pliers and tap tap tap the shaft out the rest of the way with a hammer.  Since they are 1.5mm shafts, a 1/16" bit is just a little too big.   A #54 drill is ideal, being .055" (whereas the hole is .059").  Ace Hardware sells numbered drills that size for about $4.

Since the motor is hanging free by the flywheel the whole time, this does not subject the motor to any stress (as long as you don't miss and whack the motor!)

Removing the flywheel is the easy part.  More difficult on a dual flywheel motor is reinstalling it without having the other flywheel moving on the motor shaft.

[jjb62556]

What engine is this out of...i have two, but the flywheels are much smaller...

[BCR751]

OK, I'll admit I was a bit hasty with my reply.  I've had this loco for at least 30 years and it was one of the first N-Scale ones I had.  The person I got it from, a fellow modeller, told me it was an Atlas/Kato unit so that's what I've gone with ever since.  I have amended the title of my post to indicate the proper name.

If anyone wants to see what the loco looks like, go to Spookshow's website.  There you will find a photo of it without the shell.

At this point, I'm not sure which way to go to repair this motor.  I fear that if I try removing the flywheel I have a good chance of making the whole thing FUBAR.  And, as for the cutting and re-attaching the halves of the saddle, I'm doubtful that would work.  It may be better to just leave the motor out and use the unit as a dummy.

I currently have feelers out to try and find an all-together replacement motor.  I'll see how that goes.

Doug

[jjb62556]

I have replaced one on a Atlas motor that was like the Kato one. I got a new one and cut one side and slide it over the axle and fit it in place on the motor and put it back together. It ran fine that way...

[BCR751]

Atlas/Kato RS-1 uses saddle bracket motor mounts, but they are different than the ones in your F-unit.
http://download.atlasrr.com/pdf/N%20ALCO%20RS1%20DIESEL%20LOCO.pdf
Which Atlas loco have you found that has the same saddle bracked as the F-units?

I looked at the part (440103) on the Atlas website and, as far as I can tell, they are exactly the same as the ones on my F7B.  I'm going to order a few and see if I can get one on without ruining it.

Doug

[Angus Shops]

OK, I’m confused. I thought we were settled with the idea that this is a Kato model - why are you planning on purchasing Atlas parts? Unless the Kato parts and the Atlas parts are interchangeable, but in my experience all Atlas’s locos use a one piece ‘motor saddle’…
Actually, at this moment I’m looking at the motor out of my Life Like C Liner, and the motor and the ‘motor mounts’ look more or less exactly the same, other than colour.

[BCR751]

OK, I’m confused. I thought we were settled with the idea that this is a Kato model - why are you planning on purchasing Atlas parts? Unless the Kato parts and the Atlas parts are interchangeable, but in my experience all Atlas’s locos use a one piece ‘motor saddle’…
Actually, at this moment I’m looking at the motor out of my Life Like C Liner, and the motor and the ‘motor mounts’ look more or less exactly the same, other than colour.

Yes, it is a KATO loco and yes, the saddles are indeed one piece hence Max's suggestion of removing the flywheel.  If you type in 440103 on the Atlas home page, you will see that part.  It looks exactly like the one in my Kato F7B.  Now I don't have a clue as to the heritage of this loco or what parts were used or where they came from.  All I know is that the motor saddle has broken and that it needs replacing or, if I can find it, the whole motor needs replacing.

Doug

[Angus Shops]

Ok, I see the part - makes sense to my little preoccupied brain now. I wasn’t trying to be snarky; just trying to keep up with the conversation…

[mmagliaro]

Removing the flywheel is the easy part.  More difficult on a dual flywheel motor is reinstalling it without having the other flywheel moving on the motor shaft.

Oh yes, definitely tricky.  Assuming you are going to put this thing in a jeweler's vise and squeeze the flywheel on, you have the brace the opposite SHAFT against the vise, not the opposite flywheel.  I usually just futz around with pieces of drill bits or a small bolt until I find something that will go down into the opposite flywheel's hole and get to the shaft without touching the flywheel.

[u18b]

Because this is such a challenging and common problem......

What would happen if you bought a new ring.....
Cut it longways, up and down.....
and then epoxied each half in the loco frame halves.

Like this:



I wonder if it would work.

potential pitfalls....
--ring would break again.
--if ring is not straight, might twist the motor or instigate a bind.
--not enough room.  Flywheel might hit excess epoxy.
--epoxy doesn't hold.

But to me it would be worth a try because you haven't lost anything but time.

[1956Porsche]

It is very common for these motor saddles to dry out, become brittle and break.  I have ordered and used the Atlas replacements.  Removing the flywheels is not difficult as described.   I have also glued and replaced several. The only thing I haven't tried is melting a broken one back together.  Since I've saved several broken ones, I plan on trying that as well.

Joe

[OldEastRR]

Huh ... the Atlas site says to call about any parts they still have for those Atlas/Kato hybrids. Wonder if they've still got any parts? Never knew about this.