He's gonna need a lot of help on this one....

[randgust]

OK, so you know me as the resident Luddite on all things DCC, although I have mounted a lot of DZ126T's in my Climax and Whitcomb kits.  I just set them up to defaults, test them on my Digitrax Zephyr throttle, and let somebody else mess with programming them.  Channel 3 and out you go.

I'm planning on being in Altoona again this year, on the Ttrak layout,  and I set a goal to try to get that Trix rebuild Trix Decapod converted to DCC so I can run a train on the big loop instead of being stuck on the DC loop.   And maybe, just maybe, with sound. 

The Decapod has been performing admirably on DC, so I'll risk it.   I got a Tsunami 1100 and a speaker for Christmas, and that's the project.   Remember on the Decapod I've carried the locomotive pickup back to the tender, isolated the replacement motor, changed the tender to 8x8 pickup, and rigged everything up with a TCS 6-pin disconnect between locomotive & tender.   (track pickup + motor + headlight).  Removed the coal load so I can build my own removable speaker enclosure.

So I put the 1100 in the tender this weekend and wired it in, didn't blow it up, and it's already on/off surging the motor like crazy.   I didn't put in the capacitor in (yet), that may fix it.  And no speaker, either - yet.  I do think though, that isolating mechanism vs. decoder issues will be a lot easier if I get another six-pin plug so that I can dump the entire decoder tender floor assembly and go back to DC, as I know that works.

I have the distinct feeling I'm in way over my head on this one and this will be a long debugging thread.   Putting in a DC-only tender deck as a swap out seems like a good idea.  Stand by.....

[peteski]

If the electrical pickup is solid when running on DC, then capacitors will not make any difference.  Those are only helpful in preventing entire decoder "reboots" on intermittent track contact.

This sounds more like some BEMF settings need to be tuned. Not familiar with tuning up Tsunamis. Maybe someone else can chime in.

And yes, when you get into DCC (especially sound decoders), that is just like getting into a while new hobby.  The electrical hookup itself is very simple, but the programming/tuning is the bitch. Just like with any computer equipment:  hooking up a keyboard, monitor, and AC power is easy, but then the programming can be a hair-pulling experience.  After all, decoders are tiny and powerful computers which are programmable.

[Mike C]

You can tune the BEMF automatically . Check the Tdunami 2 Steam 2 manual .    Mike

[randgust]

Continuing the 'I'm in over my head' theme of this....

Given the fact that I have an old Digitrax Zephyr, which is marginally useful to see if a decoder even works...   If I'm getting into this Tsunami sound thing there's more CV's and options than even I imagined.   And I feel like I'm working with stone tools on a circuit board.

Should I even struggle with using the Digitrax to try to program this thing?   Or dive into a full JMRI?   As an IT guy I have lots of old computers laying around, that's not the problem, but it's uncharted territory at least for me.

30 years ago I had a degree in microprocessing and was successfully setting hard addresses and IRQ's and programming robots.   What astounds me is that most of this stuff is right back to that same level in decoders.  It's one of the reasons I've stayed primarily DC.   I had a wonderful experience with a big Puma that shattered a work surface with the arm when a value was set incorrectly, at least that can't happen here.

[peteski]

Decoders *ARE* complete small computers.  They get their power (and "network" packets) from the track, they have operating system (Firmware) and I/O devices.  The conditioned voltage from the track gets feed into one of the inputs and control packets are decoded, and functions and motor are driven by the outputs.  Just like any other computer out there.  CVs are registers used to configure various settings of that computer.

Being educated in computer technology (binary system and microcomputers) gives you a huge advantage over other model railroaders getting into DCC with no computer background.  You understand things like bytes/bits or converging decimal to hex or binary numbers.

But because DCC uses computer technology there is much more to it than just plopping a DC train on the track and cranking up te DC throttle.  Sure, you can get by with very basic settings using basic decoders, but when you get into sound, the number of tunable settings increases dramatically.  You can get by just modifying few of them, but you can go full blast and start re-configuring bunch of settings.

JMRI DecoderPro makes this more complex programming easier, but I don't believe  the old Zephyr can be connected to a computer to  be able to use it with JMRI.  You will need another device which will connect a serial port (or USB/serial connection)  from the computer running JMRI DecoderPro to your DCC command station.  There are inexpensive systems out there (like Sprog or others) whihc will do this for you.

[djconway]

Dive into JMRI.
I have been using JMRI since version 1.3? with Digitrax systems, first a Super Chief and now the Envo, it makes programming decoders easyier. Note- not all manufacturers  give you good CV info, so understanding what you need to change is not always easy.
Be systematic, start by recording all of the out of the box CV values (so you have a known point to return to when you mess it up.)

I have also used the Digitrax PR3 and PR4 as standalone programmers.

Have fun!

[randgust]

I see EVO and EVOX and nothing called Envo.

As I have no intention of converting my main layout to DCC.  It's running beautifully, and the 2.5% grades and 30 car train lengths on it are not particularly friendly to underweight, low-tractive effort power that's rampant today.  This is just for testing and setting up for all the Ttrak modules I built and haul around.  That collection of motive power may be converted.   Ttrak is dead flat at least.

The old Zephyr at least let me test a basic decoder to see if it  even works; i.e. forward, back, headlights on, headlights off.... good enough.
But if I'm getting into an entire decoder swamp with the Tsumami, first, I'm not even sure the Zephyr can even access all those CV's, let alone set them, or test them (sound features).  It's always been slightly flaky.  So first question, can it even be done - without driving me insane?
I've been impressed looking at JMRI in action on a computer screen, but I don't see anything out there that works with it that isn't WAY more than what I actually need here, or maybe I do, I have no idea.   The computer, to me, is the easy part.  Blank sheet in the middle.
I also have - quite literally - a "sleeper" room of stored computers with every Microsoft operating system on it from DOS 3 up to Win11, still fully functional, just so I can retrieve old software, systems, and media.  Geez, I started with a Color Computer with DOS 1.0 on it.  Last week I had to unload from XP to Win7 to Win11 for a 25-year old dataset.

[NDave]

Hi Randgust...
It does sound like an issue with the BEMF feature of the decoder. I don't recall seeing (and didn't find) a way to have the decoder automatically set BEMF and motor control parameters. I know ESU Loksound decoders do this (not always successfully), but don't recall seeing this feature with Soundtraxx decoders...

Skimming thru the Tsunami reference guide, I see two BEMF CVs that MIGHT have an effect on your surging loco.

CV211 controls low-speed compensation, which helps get an inefficient motor started turning. The default is 180. If you have an "efficient" motor, this may be too high, resulting in surging at low speeds. You could try turning it down (set CV211 = 90? or 60?) or disabling it (set CV211 = 0), and see if that helps.

CV212 controls the BEMF feedback "intensity." the default is 255. Setting CV212 to 0 disables BEMF completely. You might give that a try.

I use an NCE Powercab, so can't really explain how to program/change  CVs with a Zephyr...

Good luck!

[Sumner]

A   DCC-EX command station is cheap and easy to build , connects easily to a computer running JMRI and also has features that help program fussy decoders.

You can run the free EngineDriver program on an Android phone and access those sound functions and others with the phone throttle.

Sumner

[randgust]

That sounds interesting, and I probably have the skills, but I'm an Iphone guy and once I get into that DCC-ex web page, it's a mass of information with no clear starting point and no reference to engine driver, which I assume isn't related anyway.

I know there's some kind of interface between a MS based laptop running JMRI and the programming track, black hole to me at this point.   

I've built and installed various custom Arduino boards for my USB/.MP4 sound systems in my modules many of you saw at Altoona.   Comfortable at that level.   Those things are a lot of fun.

I got a second 6-pin plug set in so I can run the locomotive direct off DC and bypass the tender decoder entirely, to separate all base mechanical and electrical issues from decoder issues, which to me is one of the real 'so now what's wrong???' problems with DCC.  And yes, it runs wonderfully that way.   I have a feeling I'm going to build a separate DC-only tender deck for this that I can swap with the sound decoder deck to increase my patience level with this when I'm feeling the overwhelming urge to just walk away.

[Sumner]

That sounds interesting, and I probably have the skills, but I'm an Iphone guy and once I get into that DCC-ex web page, it's a mass of information with no clear starting point and no reference to engine driver, which I assume isn't related anyway.

Yes agreed, too much info on the introductory page.  The video pretty much shows you all you need for parts and putting them together and you end up with a command station that also has WiFi to connect with the phone.

There is an 'auto-installer' for the software that is very simple to use.  You don't need to use the method shown on the video of downloading the Arduino IDE. Connect the Arduino to your computer with a USB cable and the installer will download all the software onto the Arduino automatically.

Connect the three boards as shown in the video and run the auto-installer and you have a command station.

...Iphone guy ..... no reference to engine driver....

They go into EngineDriver and other inexpensive throttle options like tablets in another section and there is a similar app to EngineDriver (maybe more than one) for Iphones ...

https://dcc-ex.com/throttles/index.html#gsc.tab=0

.... I do believe EngineDriver is a better throttle vs. the Iphone options.  I use an old Android phone as a second throttle.  It doesn't have to have a phone plan to work and you can find one dirt cheap.

I know there's some kind of interface between a MS based laptop running JMRI and the programming track, black hole to me at this point. 

Very simple and you don't need to buy an interface with the DCC-EX Command Station.  Connect the computer running JMRI to the command station with a USB cable and you are connected and can run the loco with the JMRI throttle on the laptop or your phone throttle.  With the JMRI throttle you can also activate any of the sound and other functions.  Also with JMRI connected you can run DecoderPro. 

The laptop and JMRI are connected to the command station with the USB cable.  The command station is connected to the program track for decoder programming and that track can be switched between programming and to the 'main' track output from the command station via software or you can put in a DPDT switch to physically swich the track between 'Main' or 'Program". 

Nothing else to buy.  The command station for under $75 (with WiFi).  Your laptop running JMRI and a phone or tablet throttle running free software (at least with EngineDriver, not sure about the Apple one).  You don't need the laptop/JMRI connected to run trains, only to program or use other JMRI features.

Another short video showing how simple the DCC-EX Command Station is and how easy it is to use....

If you have a 3D printer I have cases that can be printed  ( down the page a ways HERE )

 but they are also easy to make.

I run my DCC-EX with a Raspberry Pi ....





.... with everything in one case...... Pi has JMRI on it and broadcasts the WiFi network.  You don't need to know much about the Pi.  You can download an image file  ( HERE ) to put on a SD card.  Put the card in the Pi.  Start it up and JMRI comes up automatically on the screen (you don't need to download it).

Works great and you can put it together for about $100 if you have an old monitor and keyboard to use.  If not another $60-$80 and you have a train-room dedicated computer running JMRI and a very advanced DCC Command Station.


Sumner

[turbowhiz]

If you’re an iPhone user, WiThrottle is the go-to throttle app. Works great with DCC-EX, either with the native Wifi option (a little trickier to get setup) or via JMRI.

Spend a few bucks on the paid version, its worthwhile if you want a fully functional IOS throttle.

A DCC-EX setup with JMRI is great. Programming with a traditional command station is just SO painful.

[randgust]

It's not much of a step but it's a step.   Spent the afternoon yesterday rebuilding my 1970's era portable test track board to be more DCC valuable, as connecting up a test Ttrak module and having a separate programming track is a PITA.   So my DC-era, dual gauge N/Z test board now has my standard layout DC/DCC plug connectors, a 2-pin Molex connector for the programming feature, a DPDT, plus the original 12V input, trim rheostat, and mount for the tractive effort measurement system.   The track is clamp mounted right above my workbench or can go virtually anywhere including on the road.   I really like the DPDT feature as what I'm working on, the Decapod, doesn't like unnecessary handling swapping track all the time between programming and test functions.

Now I can run fixed voltage DC, any DCC input, my Snail 9v Z throttle, and a DCC programming function on a portable test track, which will help speed this up when just finding a spot where I can physically connect all this 'stuff' with a laptop - for lab testing has become a challenge.

Also, after doing some digging, it would seem like my old Zephyr is essentially useless for JMRI... no way to connect in.
That's from:  https://www.jmri.org/help/en/html/hardware/loconet/Digitrax.shtml#Setup

So if I'm updating to a current throttle and starting over on that, recommendations?

[MK]

Also, after doing some digging, it would seem like my old Zephyr is essentially useless for JMRI... no way to connect in.
That's from:  https://www.jmri.org/help/en/html/hardware/loconet/Digitrax.shtml#Setup

Randy, that's not true.  In the very beginning of your link above (bold and underline my emphasis):

To connect your computer to a Digitrax DCC system, you need either a USB-equipped Command station (DCS240 or DCS52), or a computer-to-LocoNet adapter device such as a LocoBuffer-NG, PR3, PR4, LocoBuffer-II, LocoBuffer or MS100. The LocoBuffer-NG is a highly recommended computer-to-LocoNet adapter. See below for more on adapters

I have an original Zephyr and have used a Locobuffer-II in the past to connect to JMRI and it works just fine.

[randgust]

The laptop that I can mess with is an otherwise-unused Win7, which will run JMRI but apparently not work with the drivers for the LocoBuffer-NG, which requires a Win10 OS minimum.   I'll have to look and see if that has a serial port, which is the original interface or the LocoBuffer II, but with all the warnings on the serial port configurations that's also a crapshoot, if I could even find one, which I'm not finding anywhere and is apparently out of production.   I've actually written serial port interfaces with processor-based timing a long time ago, I understand the warnings.

At the current time, nothing in this entire project has become rationally feasible, and now looking at the JMRI versions I think I may have to see if I can even get that to download and install on my available old laptop on one of the older versions; if that test fails too then it's over. I can't risk my primary laptop 'on the road' to play trains, it's effectively a secured nuclear suitcase for my company post-COVID.   Not an option, despite that it's completely current.   

So, replacing an existing laptop, existing DCC throttle, finding new interface, jury-rigging software all to just to get a motor to behave in this decoder and have sound is rapidly becoming a sanity test.   I've been lulled into a false sense of confidence with lots of successful DZ126T installs.  Amazing little guys after my initial fails with TCS that had rather similar performance issues and kept me out of DCC for several years.