BLI Pacific - Stealth with ESU Decoder

[Shaggy170]

I was wondering if anyone has had any luck with the new run of BLI Pacifics and installing an ESU decoder in it.

The installation is easy but it seems like BLI didn't add enough room in the tender for a decoder. I measure about 5.2 mm of space in the top near the speaker. The decoder, when installed, is about 5.9mm tall.

Is anyone else running into this issue?

[ATSF_Ron]

I'll be following this.  I was thinking about buying a stealth pacific and installing my choice of decoder other than the BLI.  I'd be ok with a silent decoder.

[peteski]

Which ESU decoder is 5.9mm tall?  Or do you mean speaker with enclosure and a decoder?

[Shaggy170]

Which ESU decoder is 5.9mm tall?  Or do you mean speaker with enclosure and a decoder?

The ESU decoder alone is not 5.9mm tall. But when it is installed on the board, it sits 5.9mm from the tender chassis. The speaker is provided by BLI and is mounted under the coal load in the top of the tender.

The first picture is when you open the tender for the first time. This is what BLI has in their stealth Pacifics.
The second picture has the dummy plug pulled out and an ESU decoder ready to be installed.
The third photo is the ESU decoder installed. You can see how high it sits and that is the problem I think I am running into. It sits about 5.9mm tall but the space where the speaker sits (see previous pictures) is only 5.2mm deep.

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[peteski]

Very interesting. So while BLI did many modelers a favor by producing stealth models, they didn't consider a possible thickness of 3rd party sound decoders with Next18 connector.  To me ESU LokSound decoder is not excessively thick.  But the "dummy" Next18 board from BLI is much thinner, so it clears the speaker.

Would replacing the speaker solve the problem? The sugar-cube speakers many modelers use are likely more efficient than the old-school oval speaker BLI uses.  "Sugar-cube" speaker will likely be thinner too.  You will likely have to build a custom enclosure from some sheet styrene (or 3-D print it if you have the means.  Still, This will still be easier (and less expensive) than ripping out the Paragon decoder and hardwire ESU.

[squirrelhunter]

I suspect BLI didn't check for the size of other sound decoders, probably because if asked they'd say if you wanted a sound decoder they already sell Paragon ones.

This is concerning though since I have one of these on order so I can use a spare LokSound 5 decoder I have.

[jdcolombo]

Replace the speaker.

That oval speaker looks like the same one that BLI uses in its Mikados, and it's pretty much terrible.  Pull it out, and use an 11x15mm flat cell phone speaker in its own enclosure mounted up in the front of the coal load area firing down at the tender floor.  You'll get better sound and room for the decoder.

I'd add a keep alive, too, but that probably would require pulling out the connection board and hard-wiring a LS Micro or nano with a TCS KA-1, like this:

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=48510.0

John C.

[peteski]

I suspect BLI didn't check for the size of other sound decoders, probably because if asked they'd say if you wanted a sound decoder they already sell Paragon ones.

This is concerning though since I have one of these on order so I can use a spare LokSound 5 decoder I have.

The whole point of Stealth range of models was to sell them to customers who would like to install their won decoders. Then BLI chose to include decoder adapter with a Next18 connector. Smart move, as there is a range of other brand decoders available with that DCC-standard interface.  But not allowing enough room for actual 3rd party sound decoder to fit is very strange. If I remember correctly the NMRA (or is it NEM) DCC standard actually specifies the outline size (including thickness) of a Next18 decoder to which I believe ESU adheres to. 

So while BLI's intentions were good, they didn't do their research, or chose to ignore it (possibly because they adapted the Stealth functionality to an existing model where there is not enough room to allow a standard Next18 sound decoder to fit.

[kiwi_bnsf]

I'd add a keep alive, too, but that probably would require pulling out the connection board and hard-wiring a LS Micro or nano with a TCS KA-1.

John C.

No ripping out of anything is required to add a Keep Alive to a Loksound Micro V5 with the NEXT18 connector. There are nice dedicated pads on the underside of the V5 Micro NEXT18 for GND and U+. I've added Keep Alives to my Scale Trains Dash 9s without having to hack anything up on the main circuit board. This installation thread has some photos showing exactly that…

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=56041.0

It remains to be seen what options for locos equipped with the E24 connector for Loksound Nano decoders — as these will require location of GND and U+ on the main PCB.

[jdcolombo]

Hi Tim.

My comment wasn't very clear.  I wasn't referring to needing to hack the board; I was referring to space.  With the way the decoder would attach to the pictured motherboard, there wouldn't be room for something like a TCS KA-1.  Probably the only way to get enough room would be to take out the motherboard and hard-wire.  Something like the TCS KA-N1 might fit without doing that, but it doesn't really have enough capacitance to do much good as far as keeping the engine running over a dead spot, and I've found that the small steam locos (whether from BLI, Bachmann, or Kato) really benefit enormously from a "full size" keep alive.

John C.

[kiwi_bnsf]

Hi Tim.

My comment wasn't very clear.  I wasn't referring to needing to hack the board; I was referring to space.  With the way the decoder would attach to the pictured motherboard, there wouldn't be room for something like a TCS KA-1.  Probably the only way to get enough room would be to take out the motherboard and hard-wire.  Something like the TCS KA-N1 might fit without doing that, but it doesn't really have enough capacitance to do much good as far as keeping the engine running over a dead spot, and I've found that the small steam locos (whether from BLI, Bachmann, or Kato) really benefit enormously from a "full size" keep alive.

John C.

Good to know. That BLI PCB is pretty thin and tidy — I wish I'd had one of those in my BLI AC6000CW!

I'd spend some quality time with the callipers after removing the speaker to see if a KA-1 (or several KA-N1s in parallel) and cell phone speaker combo can be accommodated before ripping everything out.

[peteski]

I just got a sample of ZIMO's STACO3A new keep-alive module.  It is a 2-lead "true" SuperCap-based unit (total capacitance 0.15F @ 5.4V) and it it is quite compact.  This might be a game changer for many N scale installs.  Its design is similar to the ESU PowerPack where a low-voltage SuperCaps are used with a DC/DC converter to charge them from 12V and also to generate 12Vwhen power is needed.

[Shaggy170]

Replace the speaker.

That oval speaker looks like the same one that BLI uses in its Mikados, and it's pretty much terrible.  Pull it out, and use an 11x15mm flat cell phone speaker in its own enclosure mounted up in the front of the coal load area firing down at the tender floor.  You'll get better sound and room for the decoder.

I'd add a keep alive, too, but that probably would require pulling out the connection board and hard-wiring a LS Micro or nano with a TCS KA-1, like this:

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=48510.0

John C.

John, that's probably what I am going to do this weekend. Remove the factory speaker and add a sugar cube in, using the factory wiring.

Very interesting. So while BLI did many modelers a favor by producing stealth models, they didn't consider a possible thickness of 3rd party sound decoders with Next18 connector.  To me ESU LokSound decoder is not excessively thick.  But the "dummy" Next18 board from BLI is much thinner, so it clears the speaker.

Would replacing the speaker solve the problem? The sugar-cube speakers many modelers use are likely more efficient than the old-school oval speaker BLI uses.  "Sugar-cube" speaker will likely be thinner too.  You will likely have to build a custom enclosure from some sheet styrene (or 3-D print it if you have the means.  Still, This will still be easier (and less expensive) than ripping out the Paragon decoder and hardwire ESU.

@peteski I thought they did us a favor by making the stealth line essentially plug and play, but I guess not. We will see how it turns out for the Reading T1. I called BLI just in the slightest of hope that this was just a defect on my locomotive and that were was a fix.... whelp, I got my hopes up for no reason. Their tech support was unhelpful. The tech said to me that they cannot guarantee that a 3rd party decoder will fit in the locomotive. She said I probably got the one decoder that didn't fit (yeah, right). There was a bit more said but it went in a circle.

[nstars]

Unfortunately it looks like the Next18 implementation is not perfect. The connector on the PC board is too high. The Next18 standard specifies a maximum thickness of the decoder of 4.1 mm of which 1.5 mm is for the components on the underside. Most Next18 implementations I have seen use low connectors to provide for a minimum distance between decoder board and connector board. That would have fitted without any problem.

Marc

[peteski]

I didn't realize there were multiple thickness of the Next18 connectors.  Do you think the ESU's connectors or BLI's is too thick?