Initial results from DLP printer

[bbussey]

I took advantage of the Black Friday to Cyber Monday sales and purchased an AnyCubic Photon D2 for $350. Normal MSRP was $850. I’ve been frustrated by my sub-standard results on my Photon Mono SLA, and I was extremely impressed with Showcase Miniatures’ revamped 3D-printed kits which are rendered with DLP technology. I’m stunned with my initial results. I attempted to print my Scenicruiser body but the supports weren’t adequate and it ended up as a blob on the FEP. So I then printed the test file to confirm the printer was sound and got blown away by the results:









Next, I reprinted the Scenicruiser body, but directly on the build plate, with no other supports. The results are stunning. No blooming at the bottom. No sagging at the windows or overhanging detail. No distortion due to uneven suction of the FEP. Only minor stepping on the rooftops to sand out.

 



The next attempt will be trying to render models on supports. Once I figure that out, a lot of possibilities come into focus.

[peteski]

Wow!
I still have the Shapeways printed version (along with the White Castle buildings) but haven't done anything with them.  Shapeways FUD is just so inadequate considering what can be done using this technology).

The AEM-7 3-D printed body I bought recently also looks pretty damn good. Not sure what printer was used for it.

[bbussey]

I have two of those AEM7 shells also.  Outstanding.  Most likely printed via DLP technology.  @Scott Lupia just finished one using a Kato mechanism and installed sound, it's stunning.

The Mack B fire pumpers by Showcase Miniatures look like they were injection-molded.  Incredible detail.

[ednadolski]

Impressive!   What size are those prints?

IDK much about DLP.  How would that compare say vs. a Phrozen Sonic Mini 8k, or Anycybic 12K Photon Mono M5s? (both pricier)?

https://www.amazon.com/ANYCUBIC-Precision-Ultra-Silent-Printing-Life-Span/dp/B0B4QWYBZL/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2KMWPHTD2QA9W&keywords=AnyCubic%2BPhoton%2BD2&qid=1701191032&sprefix=anycubic%2Bphoton%2Bd2%2Caps%2C134&sr=8-3&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.17d9e15d-4e43-4581-b373-0e5c1a776d5d&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/phrozen-Printer-Resolution-Micrometer-Printing/dp/B0C5WSKBKQ/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=Phrozen%2Bsonic%2Bmini%2B8k&qid=1701190939&sr=8-4&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.17d9e15d-4e43-4581-b373-0e5c1a776d5d&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/ANYCUBIC-Self-Leveling-Intelligent-Detection-Printing/dp/B0C5M4Z951/ref=psdc_6066127011_t2_B0B4QWYBZL?th=1

[bbussey]

The Scenicruisers are N scale, so 3" long roughly.  The test print is 2½" in diameter and 2" tall.  And as @peteski mentioned, the AEM7 quality is top notch.  It also looks like injection molding at first glance.

I corresponded with Walter at Showcase Miniatures after buying and getting blown away by the Mack B pumper.  They are using expensive DLP printers but he mentioned the advantages of the technology.  AnyCubic putting their DLP printer on deeply-discounted sale this month was enough incentive to pull the trigger.

This DLP quality is the best I've seen, and AnyCubic has made it affordable.  The 12k SLA printers may match or exceed the quality, but not at the same price point.

[Chris333]

I forget the model, but Showcase uses a 22 micron printer that was $10,000.00 smackers.

[amato1969]

Holy crap, amazing results @bbussey!  It's a rabbit hole I have not dived into, but a definite avenue to create niche products that the big boyz won't.

  Frank

[C855B]

I took advantage of the Black Friday to Cyber Monday sales and purchased an AnyCubic Photon D2 for $350. Normal MSRP was $850. ...

I've been wanting to upgrade from my original Photon, and it looks like this one will do just fine. As of a minute ago there is one on its way. Great price!

Thank you, Bryan!

[Chris333]

Does DLP still use a FEP? At the front upper window A pillar of the bus I see a slight warp where the tension changed, but it is slight and the rest looks perfect.

[bbussey]

Does DLP still use a FEP? At the front upper window A pillar of the bus I see a slight warp where the tension changed, but it is slight and the rest looks perfect.

It does.  But the UV light is more concentrated, and the resin contains ceramic powder which disperses the UV light evenly in the resin and cures it more thoroughly.  So no suction forces distorting the model when it lifts off the FEP.  Also, the anti-aliasing changes the movement of the build plate.  It moves more slowly to and from the FEP.  I printed the Scenicruisers with no supports.  Not on any overhanging detail and not on the windows.  Everything printed perfectly, including the triangle window area where the two roofs meet.  I always got distortion in that area on the SLA printer regardless of what I did.

Even with all that, it still prints faster than my Photon Mono.

If there is distortion at the A pillar, you can't see it with the naked eye.  The bodies were still wet with isopropyl when I snapped the photo.

Today I also ordered the AnyCubic cleaning/curing station.  I'm tired of dealing with the sonic cleaner and my small UV curing lamp.  The cleaning/curing station will be more efficient and allow me to clean everything from a print run simultaneously, which I can't do in the sonic cleaner.

[robert3985]

Does DLP still use a FEP? At the front upper window A pillar of the bus I see a slight warp where the tension changed, but it is slight and the rest looks perfect.

NOTE: I am modifying my post to correct several errors I made in my description of DLP equipment.  Thanks to @Peachymike for pointing them out to me!

Here's Mike's correction:

"I hope that Bob is not insulted, but I believe he has confused SLA and DLP.  Both the Anycubic and Elegoo machines are digital micro mirror devices. The light source is a UV projector (not a laser) that shines at a panel that is made up of thousands of microscopic mirror elements. These elements are flipped to either direct UV light at the vat or away from it. Light directed to the vat determines which pixels are exposed. Because of the nature of this device, it is much less susceptible to light bleed so light uniformity is about 92%. Less light bleed means that there is less light leaking into the voxel next to the one being exposed. This gives a crisper edge that is difficult to reproduce with the MSLA common in most hobbists printers. MSLA printers as we know use a light source shining through a screen and can use lenses to try to straighten the light in relation to the screen, but there is still more light bleed in these systems.
Please forgive me, but I felt there was confusion about how it works. This is one that will be interesting to see how it develops as tech and software evolve.
Mike"

Nope.  I'm not insulted in the least.  Thanks for the correction!

Yup.  DLP still uses FEP film on the bottom of the resin vat.

Basic differences between DLP and SLI resin printers is that DLP's don't have an LCD, but use what is called a Digital Mirror Device (DMD) which directs thousands of microscopic points of UV light (which forms an image layer) from the UV light source, focused on the liquid resin directly behind the FEP film on the bottom of the resin vat...much more efficiently and crisper than what is possible using conventional light collimating devices located behind an LCD.

Because of the nature of the reflective micro mirrors of the DMD and how they function, saying that there are "pixels" here is incorrect since there is no 2D screen full of little holes (pixels) for light to travel through.  What the DMD produces are "voxels" focused within the liquid resin touching the surface of the FEP film...which are 3D, solidifying in all three axes (X, Y & Z) and adhering slightly to the FEP film's surface.

SLI printers also produce voxels focused on the resin behind the FEP film, just like DLP printers do, but their voxels are not as clearly defined as are those produced by the DMD inside of an DLP printer.

Although SLI printers' X-Y resolution is normally stated as what the pixel size is on the LCD...which definitely affects the X-Y resolution of what is being printed...the UV light source has its light collimated BEFORE it goes through the LCD, through a screen protector, through the FEP into the resin...so, the end result is that the point of light that finally hits the resin has been progressively de-collimated and is blurry. This results in a "voxel" size in the resin vat of around 55 to 58 microns for SLI printers rated at 22 to 28.5 micron pixel size at their LCD.

DLP printers don't have an LCD with tiny pixels for collimated light to pass through, but use their DMD (Digital Mirror Device) to direct focused, reflected light through only an optical quality glass plate, and the FEP film before focusing on the resin...which greatly reduces light diffusion and stray light interference.

DLP printers' "pixel" size, which isn't stated by either Anycubic or Elegoo in their machine spec's, due to the fact the DMD doesn't HAVE pixels, produces voxels at the resin vat's FEP of around 55 microns...within one or two microns of the voxels produced by SLI machines...but with much less blur.  In the past, I've read the spec's for the first DLP Anycubic printer, which stated an "effective" pixel size...even though there's nothing in them that produces a 2D pixel.

This means that ACTUAL X-Y resolution at the resin vat's FEP (voxel size) is very close to being the same between 22 to 24 micron pixel SLI machines and the current DLP printers.

BUT...and this is a big "BUT"...DLP printers produce noticeably sharper prints...so sharp that layer lines are more evident because there is much less softening of the light reflected and focused off of the DMD, as opposed to the conventionally collimated light that SLI printers produce behind their LCD's.

Both the Anycubic Photon D2 and the Elegoo Mars 4 DLP printers have the latest AA algorithms, so the inherent print sharpness can be mitigated, allowing for either extra-sharp prints, or softer prints...or something between those two choices.

The only "drawback" for either DLP printer is the relatively small size of the print envelope...really not suitable for mass production, or for producing large prints, but should be fine for smaller prints.

But, their MTTF is incredibly long, they consume much less energy, are much quieter and generally faster than most SLI printers, and are really ideal for most N-scale projects...especially at the discounted price!

If I still haven't got it right, please contact me so that I can correct any other problems I might have with my explanation.

Although both DLP and SLI machines affect the resin in the same way, by producing voxels at the FEP, which turn into a 3D print layer by layer, they achieve this through different methods...and comparing them involves a bit of convoluted thinking since nobody talks about voxels...where the rubber meets the road so to speak...and is what really counts as far as ultimate resolution is concerned.

Hope this helps a bit to understand the basic differences between DLP and SLI resin printers.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[Jesse6669]

Is the resin specific to DLP printers?  I've spent considerable time experimenting with resins on my Phrozen Sonic Mini 8K and am happy with my current blend of Aqua 8K/Onyx, but this tech might be slightly better.  Can you use "regular" LCD print resins with the DLP printers?  I'm printing handrails that are 0.20 mm wide, and details much smaller on my T-scale models and don't want to give that up.

[Chris333]

No mfg ever explains the resins and what makes them different. Is the resin with ceramic called Craftman resin?

[JeffB]

Hope this helps a bit to understand the basic differences between DLP and SLI resin printers.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

That's a great explanation/breakdown of the differences between DLP and SLA/SLI printers Bob...  Thanks!

Jeff

[robert3985]

Is the resin specific to DLP printers?  I've spent considerable time experimenting with resins on my Phrozen Sonic Mini 8K and am happy with my current blend of Aqua 8K/Onyx, but this tech might be slightly better.  Can you use "regular" LCD print resins with the DLP printers?  I'm printing handrails that are 0.20 mm wide, and details much smaller on my T-scale models and don't want to give that up.

You can interchange resins with both DLP and SLI machines since the curing process uses the same wavelength of UV light.

However, since DLP printers have the capability to be "sharper", DLP resins are generally biased towards retaining detail, sacrificing a bit (or a lot) of durability..."durability" usually meaning flexibility/non-brittleness. This means that your prints may have noticeably sharper details, but will be more fragile.

Personally, if I were to purchase a DLP printer (which I am tempted to do to augment my much larger capacity Anycubic Photon M3 Premium 8K 28.5micron 10" printer), I would probably continue to use the same resin I use for the vast majority of my prints, which is Anycubic ABS-Like Resin Pro, which, at ambient temperatures between 22C and 26C, gives me what I want as far as detail retention and durability.

The qualities of your chosen resin aren't going to change because of any technological differences between DLP and SLI printers...but, your printer settings WILL definitely change.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore