What is happening to our hobby?

[JoeD]

It's funny, that's the reason I picked "December of 1985 on the NCR" when I was working at MBK 20 years ago.

I can't imagine the temptations when you can get chips fresh off the line.

[EJN]

Like the song by glam metal band Cinderella goes "Don't know what you got Till it's gone".

That line was first used by Joni Mitchell in "Big Yellow Taxi"

"Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone
They paved paradise, put up a parking lot"

Speaking from the HO side people didn't want cheaper stuff like the Athearn blue box and Roundhouse kits no more.

I beg to differ

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[Rossford Yard]

I started this so I'll add another 2 cents.

Married, retired and disabled with 18-year-old triplets, 2 in college and one in a cooking school my budget is very limited. What I can spend is what I can make from the collections I bought when I worked in the Hobby Shop. I was at one point buying any D&H car that was produced, but those days are gone. I cannot afford to buy newly released cars. $31.00 for a NE Caboose?  No, I will redo the Life-Likes I got for $5.00 each.  The one thing I do have is time to redo cars ( I will post a 2-Bay ACF Center Flow I redid in D&H). And thanks to Jeff Martin I have a way to make stand-in D&H end cupola cabooses. And I have been able to use my modeling skills to make GP-39-2s from the shells and locos I had.

But what am I trying to say? Are the model companies pricing themselves out of sales? The Atlas old cupola caboose which has been around forever is up to $22.95. I understand about costs for molds, production cost and the need to make a profit,  But wasn't he reason production went to CHina to reduce costs?
All I know I cannot buy the cars I wish to add to my D&H collection due to cost ( after years of paying less than $10 for atlas cars, I cannot bring myself to spend $31.00 for a NACC plug door box.

Bruce

I'll bet you look forward to getting a raise in 4 years.....I put three kids through college, but not all at the same time.

In my post, I feel I had a similar attitude to you - but balk over $40 for a new car vs. balking at $30, although I even hate paying $30+ for new rolling stock.    Luckily, due to past "indiscretions in spending," I could fill my layout and still have many to sell......

I got some blowback years ago on the Atlas forum for even saying that a person with less means might have to stay away from the hobby.  I guess it wasn't very sensitively worded, but I recall an old football saying, "IF the pass ain't working, go to the run plays."  It is still probably true.  When I retire fully and my income goes down, I believe there will still be workarounds like building a module and joining a club, being a constant eBay watcher for good deals, heck maybe even changing my hobby to searching for good deals on MR stuff.  There is probably always a way to enjoy the hobby on the cheap if you are willing to sacrifice all but your favorite parts and maybe develop new favorites.  Most of us change interests (scale, region, goals) over time anyway.  And most of us have at one time or another felt like we compromised if we had anything less than a barn size layout.  (age has certainly taught me that bigger isn't necessarily better, although it still pulls at me a bit.)

As to pricing themselves out, I understand MTL Joe when he says they add up all their costs and try to sell at a price above that, and it comes out where it comes out.  But the other side of that is the market.  I am guessing that, like many industries, they hold prices as long as they can, and then periodically bump them dramatically, knowing they will overall get fewer complaints than if they nickel and dime us every year.  I also guess that what will save them/us from rising prices will be 3D printing and once they can cross over to that, prices will remain steady while allowing them to eak out some profit.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

One thing to keep in mind: nobody's getting rich in the model train industry.

I remember talking to Paul at Atlas about it years ago when he was promoted to COO.
"So, Paul, you getting a Bentley or Rolls?" "No, I'm thinking maybe a Pontiac"

How many COO's do you know rolling domestic? Probably not too many.

So keep that in mind when you're thinking about profit margins in this business.

[mu26aeh]

One thing to keep in mind: nobody's getting rich in the model train industry.

Ya know how to make a million dollars in model railroading ?

Start with 2 million

[Rossford Yard]

Ya know how to make a million dollars in model railroading ?

Start with 2 million

The oldest joke ever, but I still laugh.....

[jdcolombo]

Companies like Atlas, Scale Trains, Micro Trains, etc. simply follow the market.  The market has moved from kits and "generic" models that could be produced relatively cheaply to high-detail, RR-specific models that can be purchased RTR and plopped on the layout with no work at all, and this (along with the inevitable inflation) has driven prices up.  If you are on a fixed income, that's terrible, but if the companies thought they would make more money under the old production/pricing model, they would do so.  The fact that we don't have that anymore indicates that the market has moved on and the companies involved are simply following the market demand.  As Ed notes, no one is getting rich in the model railroad business.

As others have pointed out, if your purchasing power is limited, go to train shows.  Tables at these shows are often filled with older/less detailed/less currently-desirable models for bargain prices.  Forget e-bay, where everyone thinks what they are selling is priceless.  At train shows, you'll find a lot of stuff many people peg as "junk" but with a bit of paint/weathering/decal work would be just fine for anything but close-up magazine photography.  I have a dozen Model Power bay window cabooses that I bought for $2 each, stripped and repainted for the NKP.  They are not even close to the NKP prototype bays in their details, but with MT trucks/couplers they operate perfectly on the layout, and unless you're an NKP fanatic, you wouldn't know that the bay isn't exactly right; the window placement isn't correct; etc.  They are red with black roofs; have the light gray stripe with "Nickel Plate High Speed Service" on the sides and the correct NKP decals. Good enough.

The 1960's, 70's and even 80's and 90's are gone, folks.  Wishing they were back won't make them so.  Landline phones are dead as a doornail; gas is $4/gallon, not 35 cents. It is what it is.

John C.

[Dwight in Toronto]

I can echo everything John Columbo said - I’ve had tremendous fun browsing train shows around southern Ontario within the last two months, and haggling with table vendors has resulted in a number of very satisfying bargain-priced acquisitions.

Some have been hard-to-find, new/unused, deeply discounted RTR purchases.
Others have been low-cost “expendable” locos and rolling stock destined for experimental repairs/upgrades/surgery/kitbashing/airbrushing etc.

As nice as the “thrift” shopping is, I also patronize four local hobby shops with some frequency.  If I see something I like, I rarely deliberate because of MSRP sticker prices … I just buy it.  I genuinely appreciate that these brick-&-mortar outlets are still there, with their well-stocked shelves and glass cases, so I try to do my small part to help keep them viable. 

I stumble onto ebay from time to time while searching/browsing on-line, but have never purchased anything through that venue.

[peteski]

Funny thing is that the dealers at the local train shows around here want ridiculous prices even for garbage.  Like old  Bachmann cabooses (not new run) with rapido couplers for $15! Some even still have the original $5 price tags! You would think they have gold for sale.  Yes, there are sometimes few bargains to be found, but those are rare.  Our shows are sort of what eBay has become - everybody *DOES* want to get rich selling crappy models.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Funny thing is that the dealers at the local train shows around here want ridiculous prices even for garbage.  Like old  Bachmann cabooses (not new run) with rapido couplers for $15! Some even still have the original $5 price tags! You would think they have gold for sale.  Yes, there are sometimes few bargains to be found, but those are rare.  Our shows are sort of what eBay has become - everybody *DOES* want to get rich selling crappy models.

Yeah, but Pete, they gotta pay for the gas to carry it around from train show to train show for the last 15 years somehow! lol

[tehachapifan]

Funny thing is that the dealers at the local train shows around here want ridiculous prices even for garbage.  Like old  Bachmann cabooses (not new run) with rapido couplers for $15! Some even still have the original $5 price tags! You would think they have gold for sale.  Yes, there are sometimes few bargains to be found, but those are rare.  Our shows are sort of what eBay has become - everybody *DOES* want to get rich selling crappy models.

This is why I've mostly given up on train shows. Been seeing tables full of the exact same junk for the past 20 years and it's usually around $30 just to get in the door ($15 to park and $15 for entry). Do these people travel all over the country hauling around those same, cheap junker HO cabooses year after year after year???

[JoeD]

Ya know how to make a million dollars in model railroading ?

Start with 2 million

Start with 4 million actually.  LOL 

[squirrelhunter]

My complaint is less with the MSRP/retail price of items, or even the size of new runs, but how infrequently items are run. We need items run more frequently!

SP is a popular road, and if you want to model it from the 60's to 1996, you need bloody nose GP9's. Atlas has nice GP 9 tooling, but they last announced a run of SP bloody nose GP9's in April 2010, over 13 years ago. So if you want one, you should plan on a fairly long period (possibly over a year) of checking eBay to see if one is listed at all. And you need to be willing to spend over $100 (and really probably over $125) for a 13 year old DC locomotive if you actually want to win the auction.

I just don't see how the prototype side on N scale can sustain itself is key/common equipment for popular roads and industries is frequently unavailable at any price or costs more than a similar new item if is us available when you look over at HO and there is by comparison a steady stream of new stuff across all eras AND a robust secondary market in case you missed something/want to change eras.

[Rossford Yard]

Basic economics law suggests niche opportunities that someone will jump on.

Those dealers that bring the same crap for years (and I have seen that, too) will either die on the vine or change their business model.  The die on the vine approach should eventually result in a huge going out of business sale.

For locomotive road names, I wonder if we will see someone go with the old "Bev Bel" model, convincing a loco mfg to make many extra shells for semi-custom painting? 

[Rivet Miscounter]

Regarding the "repeat o-vendors"...   

I'm convinced that a lot of those guys just enjoy the train show atmosphere.  If they make nothing then the cost of the table is just their entertainment.  Most of us pay x amount of money to do things we enjoy, so I don't think it's that different.

Granted that doesn't make for a very exciting train show from the attendee perspective if everyone was like that.   But fortunately there's usually some decent percentage of new blood too.