Ballast glue besides white glue

[EJN]

FWIW, I've always used Kodak Photo-Flo as a wetting agent, I had a 16 oz. bottle left over from my B&W darkroom days. I'm almost out, but you can still get it from B&H Photo.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/28195-REG/Kodak_1464510_Photo_Flo_200_Solution.html

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As for white glue alternatives, @Lemosteam posted this about using Elmer's clear glue:

Finished up and wetted the ballast on the far end. At the near end the ballast has completely solidified. Track cleanup and crock picking is next after the far section has dried.



I found this Elmers both for laying down the 2/3 glue water pre-ballast glue, and for the 50/50 wetting glue. It mixes just like white glue but dries clear and more flat than satin-y but hardly noticeable.

[JeffB]

I've never used alcohol as a wetting agent, and I used the highest quality Liquitex Matte Medium...and got whitening really badly.  So, no, I don't think IPA is the culprit.  I'm pretty sure it's whatever they had to replace talc with that does the deed.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

The whitening is from the solids in the Matte Medium.  MM contains either Talc (Calcium Carbonate) or Titanium Dioxide.  When the liquid evaporates, the solids and dried acrylic resin remain.

Dave Frary gave me a great tip years ago to prevent whitening, but it requires a little advance preparation.  Mix a large batch of diluted MM with water and a small percentage of alcohol (IPA).  I mix a ratio of one part MM and three parts water.  Shake well.  Then mix in about 5% (by volume) of 91% IPA.

Set this aside for a few weeks to a month...  After that time, decant the white liquid into a new container, but take care not to allow the solids that have precipitated out of solution (to the bottom of the container) to mix in with the solution you're decanting out.

I use empty plastic 1 gallon orange juice containers.  The first container that has the white sludge/solids can be washed out and reused.

I've not had any issues with whitening after following this procedure.  Before anyone chimes it with how much work this is, it's not.  At. All.  It just requires you prepare a few weeks ahead of time.  I keep a few gallons prepared in my stockpile of scenery materials.

What I like most about Matte Medium as a ballast glue and scenic cement...  It dries flat.  It's flexible, unlike dry white glue.  Most importantly (to me at least), if you don't like how your ballasting comes out (or scenery application), you just soak the dried material with IPA and you can scrape up the ballast, soil, sand, ground foam, etc...

Jeff

[jpwisc]

jpwisc, that ballast job looks great!  I've thought about the Scenic Cement but never have used it.  I've read reviews and most people really like it.  Do you thin it at all or just use as is?  Do you put any kind of "wetting agent" down first?

Ron, I use it straight out of the bottle. I do wet the area with 70% isopropyl alcohol first, then I pipette the WS glue in place

[peteski]

The whitening is from the solids in the Matte Medium.  MM contains either Talc (Calcium Carbonate) or Titanium Dioxide.  When the liquid evaporates, the solids and dried acrylic resin remain.

Dave Frary gave me a great tip years ago to prevent whitening, but it requires a little advance preparation.  Mix a large batch of diluted MM with water and a small percentage of alcohol (IPA).  I mix a ratio of one part MM and three parts water.  Shake well.  Then mix in about 5% (by volume) of 91% IPA.

Set this aside for a few weeks to a month...  After that time, decant the white liquid into a new container, but take care not to allow the solids that have precipitated out of solution (to the bottom of the container) to mix in with the solution you're decanting out.
. . .

Jeff

Interesting information.  All along I thought that the "matt" in Matt Medium was a result of the flattenign agent (Talc  or Titanium Dioxide), and that if that wasn't in the mix, the Matt Medium would become Gloss Medium.  Interesting that the processed Matte Medium still dries to a flat finish.  Then what is the Talc  or Titanium Dioxide added for? 

Kind of like if you let the stuff in Testors Dullcote settle on the bottom and then use just the clear lacquer at the top, it will dry glossy.

[Dwight in Toronto]

The whitening is from the solids in the Matte Medium.  MM contains either Talc (Calcium Carbonate)

Talc is a magnesium silicate.  It’s an interesting mineral, not only in that on the hardness scale, it ranks as the softest (you can scratch it with your fingernail), but it also has a soft, oily feel (think soapstone), and it can be found in lovely shades of green! 

(Apologies … the geologist/mineralogist in me sometimes forces an appearance).

[JeffB]

Interesting information.  All along I thought that the "matt" in Matt Medium was a result of the flattenign agent (Talc  or Titanium Dioxide), and that if that wasn't in the mix, the Matt Medium would become Gloss Medium.  Interesting that the processed Matte Medium still dries to a flat finish.  Then what is the Talc  or Titanium Dioxide added for? 

Kind of like if you let the stuff in Testors Dullcote settle on the bottom and then use just the clear lacquer at the top, it will dry glossy.

Not exactly sure how it works Peteski...  But I do know that it still dries flat after the solids are removed. 

Ever use acrylic flat polyurethane?  Dries pretty darn clear and pretty darn flat.  Doesn't appear to have much for pigment/solids in it.   I spray or roll it over two painted surfaces that mate together (train modules) where I don't want them sticking together (because of the paint used).

Anyway...  Not sure how it works, but I can attest that it does.  Remove the solids from Matte Medium and it'll still dry flat (more or less) and you don't get any whitening.

Jeff

[Chris333]

I watched a video on wood flooring once (all automated) and when they sprayed on the clear they said it had aluminum mixed in so it wouldn't wear down. I wondered how they did it so the aluminum didn't look like metal flake.

I dunno just made me think of it when I read about the talc. 

[peteski]

I watched a video on wood flooring once (all automated) and when they sprayed on the clear they said it had aluminum mixed in so it wouldn't wear down. I wondered how they did it so the aluminum didn't look like metal flake.

I dunno just made me think of it when I read about the talc. 

It is likely not metallic aluminum but aluminum oxide.  It is a very hard translucent material that is widely used as the grit on sandpaper. So the floor will become "sandpaper" and actually wear down the shoes walking on it. 

[BCR 570]

I have only done a little bit of ballasting to date.  I used Modge Podge and was satisfied with the results.






Tim

[ATSF_Ron]

Tim, that ballast looks great and very "fine."  I use Woodland Scenics mostly, which looks fine to my eyes, as long as I'm not taking closeups.  Then it looks huge and grainy in pics.  Are you using Arizona Rock and Mineral?  It's hard to find in my area (Sacramento, CA).

[robert3985]

Tim, that ballast looks great and very "fine."  I use Woodland Scenics mostly, which looks fine to my eyes, as long as I'm not taking closeups.  Then it looks huge and grainy in pics.  Are you using Arizona Rock and Mineral?  It's hard to find in my area (Sacramento, CA).

ARM N-scale Ballast is hard to find in my area too, so I order direct from them when I am in need here: https://www.armballast.com/product-category/ballast/n-scale/

I grade all of my ballast so that the ballast rocks are scale-sized, getting rid of the big rocks and sifting out the smaller rocks and dust.

I've found through hard experience in the past that dusty real-rock N-scale ballast looks like concrete if you don't remove most of the dust.

Truth is that I don't use ARM Ballast on my own layout and modules since I bought out all of my LHS' supply of Highball Ballast when I heard they were going out of business, so I have a stash of it.  I use ARM Ballast on customers' and friends' layouts/modules, and it looks very good especially when graded.

My last batch of ARM Ballast was especially dusty, so minimally sifting out the dust is a must.

Photo (1) - Here's a photo of my ARM Ballast mix on the mainlines and pure ARM "Cinders" on the branchline on this section of Nate's (@Nato) layout that I built for him...


Photo (2) - Here's a closer shot:


Have fun!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[ATSF_Ron]

Bob, that's a great ballasting job!  My goal is to have a profile that looks that good.  I've seen many samples like this on the forum.

I did a noise test sample this weekend.  I don't care for the noisy, brittle effects I get with white glue, and also didn't care for the white residue that matte medium left.  I decided to try out Scenic Cement, as mentioned by a couple people on the forum.  I also decided to compare the cork roadbed vs. WS foam roadbed.  I have a pic of each below.  Both roadbed materials were fastened down with DAP silicone caulk.  Yeah yeah, I know the profiles & tops of the ties need a touchup, but this was a quick noise test, not a "perfect profile" look test.  The WS foam especially will need more touching up if I decide to go with that.  Perhaps because the slope is more "slick" than the cork causes the ballast to slide down?  Not sure.  I also get a much better result using isopropyl alcohol as a wetting agent, so I used what I had on hand (91%).

What I found is...it's a tie in terms of noise level.  I really can't tell the difference, but they both ARE significantly quieter than using white glue.  I'm leaning towards the cork since there's far less touch up required after it's dry.  The other thing I noticed is I need to have a much smaller amount (thickness) between the ties.  I had a lot of top-of-the-ties ballast to clean off after the Scenic Cement dried.  Same with the rail web.